Speaker 1 (00:00.148)

If I took on a client that really didn't want to work with me and I was pandering to the experience all the time, it caused me so much problems. And the guy called me a black shit and I just thought, this is... You will never see me again. I will not work with anybody that is disrespecting me in that way. No way.

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (00:28.056)

For so many of the women who are listening, that is like our dream, you know, to be like, you know, to tell their boss or their employer to fuck all the way off and just exit the situation. But it's not always an option.

I've seen so many black people in business just fail because they're pandering to the white person and these people have no respect for us. You cannot lose yourself to these people. You just cannot. The only reason why you should go to work, Natasha, is to find out what the hell is going on in that place and get the fuck out. Yeah? Just find out how it works. Use their systems.

and get out and do your own thing.

Speaker 2 (01:26.104)

Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee No Cream podcast. My name is Erin Braxton and I am the host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, are unapologetically dedicated to black women and we discuss what I like to call coffee no cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in business and in life just because we are black. Now, today's guest is a super, super fun one. It is our first British guest. When I look at my analytics since I started this podcast,

I believe the UK is the country or the region most viewed after the United States and then Canada. And then, you know, we have a bunch of other countries. So I am super excited for you guys to meet Natasha Williams. She contacted me because she is performing a global research study that is going to address the Black Excellence Tax.

the issues, the problems that I've been talking about that we go through as black women, black people as well. This isn't just a black female research study that we go through when we've achieved, when we get into these organizations, when we have tried to climb the corporate ladder. When we got on a Zoom the first time, because we just decided to meet because she wanted me to.

share this research study with you guys so you can be a part of it if that's something you wanna do. She and I spoke on the Zoom call for like three hours we were talking. We had such a good time. She's so joyful and delightful and just has a great perspective. And clearly she has coffee no cream moments to share, a ton of coffee no cream moments to share growing up in England.

A lot of people say this is an American problem that black people are having. This is just in America. It is not. It is not. And talking to her was truly, truly a treat and a joy. So I'm very excited for you guys to meet her before we get into that. Please like, please share, please subscribe. We've got the Facebook community. The link is below. For those of you who want to join us to continue the conversation. What else? We've got the free educational resources.

Speaker 2 (03:46.658)

where we've got over a thousand free courses that we share where you can just take courses for free to level up, propel yourself forward, all the things. And I think that's it. So without further ado, I wanna introduce you to Natasha. So let's get into the episode. Welcome Natasha, how are you today?

Good, thank you for having me, Erin. Thank you so

I'm excited to have you. You're our first guest from over the pond, I guess as they say. Yeah. So tell everybody what it is that you do every day. Tell us about yourself.

So I'm researching something called the cost of black excellence. And I'm looking at why black people, black women, black professionals are always going to work and trying to get to the top. And they find it so difficult to get to the top. When they do get to the top, they burn out. There's other things that happen to them. So in the research, I've been finding something that I call

the excellence tax where they have the extra emotional labour, code switching, hypervigilance and the need to be twice as good as everyone else just to get half as far. So that's what I'm doing full time at the moment. So I want to turn it into a policy paper. I'll be doing a white paper in the new year. So yeah, that's what I'm working on at the moment.

Speaker 2 (05:22.83)

Well, I mean, could not be more perfect for the podcast and what it is we talk about. And obviously you were led to this research for a reason. know, you and I, for those of you who watching, Natasha and I just met.

She contacted me to let me know about the the research which I'm super excited to hear that she's conducting and then we had this conversation we were What were we talking for like three hours? Never met this woman in my life, but we get on Talking forever, right and it was about the research but when she was talking I was like, my god, this woman has got to come on so you've obviously shared coffee no cream moments and

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:10.966)

It's so interesting because you are British and people will get in these comments that I have sometimes a lot of times are just saying this is just an American problem. But I've heard from people in South Africa. I've heard from people in France, Canada, like all over the world. Right. So and you definitely have had coffee, no cream moments. So I will just turn it over to you and ask you to share with us, Natasha.

What is one of your coffee no cream moments?

Yeah, like you said, I've had quite a lot of coffee no cream moments. But one of the ones that stood out to me was when I was working as a building surveyor. So I had my own firm for about 13 years and I went into this office in a very posh part of the West Midlands. And I said, I'm Natasha Williams. I'm here to do the survey on this property.

collected the keys, she started asking me quite a lot of questions and I just thought, whatever. You know, I'm just going to get these keys, just go and do the survey. So when I went off to go and do the survey, I was in the loft and I saw that there was a leak coming in through the chimney. So I put my phone downstairs because I didn't want my phone to get wet and just went up back in the loft with my tools.

to have a look where the leak was coming from so that I could document it properly for my client. And so I was in the property for about three hours. I didn't realize that my phone was ringing. I didn't realize that anybody was trying to contact me. So this lady basically called the police, called my office.

Speaker 1 (08:08.352)

and she was just really upset. when I saw that had about 15 missed calls, so when I handed back the keys, I went back to the office to hand back the keys. I was just listening to a couple of the messages and I thought, I'm not gonna listen to anymore. So I walked in, she said, where have you been? I said, I just explained to her. was in the office, I was in the house, I was doing the survey.

My secretary told her that I was the managing director of the company and she started apologizing, sorry, I didn't know who you were. I've given you my card, I've given you everything and this is how I've always been treated throughout my time being a building surveyor and I think it just wore me down after a while, you see. And it was like that.

all the time, every time I went into an office, is that your real voice? Are you here to collect the keys? Can I call your office just to confirm who you are? Bearing in mind that I would call in and say that I'm coming to collect the keys. You can't be Natasha Williams. We don't have surveyors like you. Yeah, I used to say to them, you need to get used to us, really. Yeah. There's going to be more.

Yes. Actually say we don't have surveyors like you.

I

Speaker 1 (09:38.848)

Yeah, you're not the usual surveyor. We don't normally have surveyors like you. So, yeah, and I usually dress quite well as a surveyor to, you know, when you go in to the house as well. I've had one where someone said to me, get away from the house, get away from the house. So I said, well, obviously you don't want the survey done today. sorry, sorry, I didn't realise you were the surveyor.

So she said to me, I thought you were the cleaner. So I said, I've not seen any cleaners walking around with ladders, have you? So I would just walk away and just cancel the survey. I'm not working in those sorts of environments. I'm not doing it.

I love that. I mean, the fact that you have the power to just cancel, know, everybody doesn't have that flexibility. So I just want to clear something up. So when you say surveyor in England, we don't. Is that more like what we consider to be an inspector? Like when you come and inspect a property when it's in escrow or about to be sold or something like that?

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:56.012)

to make sure or let the buyers know what could potentially be wrong with the property. Is that the same thing?

That's exactly it. So I go in, find out what the defects are and then I send a report back to the buyer and then they make a decision whether they want to buy that property or not.

Yeah, I'm just curious because I, you know, I just got a comment from somebody and I guess I guess they're African. They're not African American. I'm American. And, you know, I was saying something about historically how black women are considered to be so strong. We've had to be so strong and

Stoic and all these different things and she was like historically is that America or is this just America because this is not Africa, right? So I Consider England very similar to the United States in these matters, but maybe I'm incorrect Like just amongst your people your circle your family I know we talked a little bit about your family and they've had a different experience colorism

is different. But I mean, as far as racism, when you're talking to people that you know in England, what has been their experience? Do you feel like it's the same?

Speaker 1 (12:29.012)

Yeah, think it's the same. think when you... Well, in the UK, I think it's so subtle sometimes. You're questioning yourself, actually. These people can turn you into a mad woman. They will say something and you're like, is that racism or were they just being sarcastic or...

You know, and you go home and you start discussing it with your family. And my sister's always quick. That was racism. know, yeah. like, for instance, my sister went to work one day and someone was having a baby and they brought out this baby grow that said nippers with attitude. And so he was like, niggas with attitude. It was a white man that said that.

So my sister said to me, we're going to write a letter to make sure this guy gets sacked or something because he is out of order. I'm like, maybe he was just being like sarcastic or maybe he was talking about NWA, you know, the group. So the thing is that we don't know how to take it sometimes. Yeah. And I just find that.

Yeah.

Africans have a very different experience to what we do as Black Caribbeans who have grown up here and they come from different households anyway, and they've still got their sort of traditions and what have you, especially amongst my Ghanaian, Nigerian and Zimbabwe friends. They seem to have all their traditions. We have lost quite a lot of our traditions if we even had any because

Speaker 1 (14:21.174)

We have assimilated ourselves to the British society. We've blended in and we're Christians. We do what they say. We do what they do. And it's a different experience. We're not accepted at the end of the day. We're not accepted. I think...

interrupt your Jamaican people. Natasha's Jamaican.

Yeah, Jamaican background. And I think there's a lot of colorism that goes on in our community in general anyway. I grew up with, like I say, Jamaicans. That's why my stepdad was really light skinned. And for some reason, he felt that he would be accepted more than me, than white people.

Then I would be accepted by white people so he would go on every day call him in names How difficult it was going to be for me as a dark-skinned black person? dark-skinned girl, I'm only I should be Focused on cooking and cleaning because there's no way I was going to get anywhere in life in England But his children because they're light-skinned they would have more opportunity and I would say to him but listen

were black and in the eyes of white people were black and that's just the end of it you know

Speaker 2 (15:55.927)

And it sounds like from my conversations with you, you're the most successful.

Yeah, yeah, I'd say one of the most successful in the family. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, they're not happy with that. The thing is that it's got to be done. So yeah.

Yeah, yeah, colorism. That's another topic, you know, and there's a lot of content creators who do a wonderful job at talking. Do you ever watch? Have you ever watched Chrissy's channel? Do you know Chrissy is? She's she's really good. She's good. She's all about the promotion of dark skinned black women. I I enjoy her content a lot. She's been around.

No, no, no.

Speaker 2 (16:44.334)

I think for like 10 years, really enjoy her content. So I just wanted to know if you've ever, yeah, she's all about, but you never seen her. We don't know what she looks like. very private about that and she's done a really, really good job. But I think her perspective and her point of view, I personally enjoy it. But anywho, yeah, so, okay.

Right? right.

Speaker 2 (17:13.262)

And you said, so is the N word this, I'm just asking questions because I don't know. Is that a word that you hear often or is that a word that's the problem that it is here in the United States, in England?

No, you hardly hear that word. And to be honest, as black people don't really say it towards each other within the UK as well. I mean, you might get your drill music or whatever, but I mean, that's where you'll hear it in the rap or something like that. But in terms of us communicating with each other, we hardly ever hear it.

You hardly hear it from white people. But the thing is that you will be excluded from a lot of things. They'll... I don't know. They just do certain things that you just sort of like... I'm not quite sure what this is. You will not be invited to certain places if they feel that your face doesn't fit. I remember when I was on my planning degree, my...

a master's degree. And I got a scholarship to do this, to do this master's degree coming from like a very low level university, so they said. And it was based in Kingston, which is a predominantly white area. And when I was signing up for the course, the lady did say to me that, yeah, you're just, you know, you know, in order to meet the needs for the scholarship.

you do need to have this level of education. So I said, that's no problem. I've got that level of education. I'm sure minimum of two, one to go onto the course. She said to me, you do know, Natasha, that you won't be able to get the type of job that you want after this because there aren't many people that look like you in the industry. And I'm just like,

Speaker 2 (19:27.082)

Did just mean black? Did she mean like dark skin black? What do you think she meant?

think she meant black because when I went on the course, I was the only black person that was on the course. And there was an Asian lady there and they found, well, they saw that she was a Muslim. They didn't understand why she was wearing a headscarf, told her to take off her headscarf. Just silliness like that. Another black lady came on the course later.

She didn't have any hair. My hair was quite long. She was darker than I was. And they started calling me her name. The lecturer even told me off and said, last week you were talking about Africa. I'm not from Africa. I wasn't talking about Africa. I know who I am. I'm not that person. You've got us mixed up. I've lived amongst Africans. I can tell you all individually. And they'll make comments like that.

Wow.

You can't believe that you're actually amongst professional people behaving in that sort of way.

Speaker 2 (20:38.946)

Yeah, I feel like British people are definitely more polite about it. You guys just seem polite in general. Like I think I mentioned to you, nobody knows I'm a British entertainment person. Like I love British TV. I love period pieces with old white British people. I don't know why I love anything British, British movies. I'm just into it.

So I just noticed that when you guys, when British people say things, it's always with a level of politeness, maybe because it's proper, it's, you know, the accent, I don't know, but different than what we deal with here, which just sounds coming from a different place, I guess.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:32.216)

But I think it depends on who you're with it because there's so many different accents in here. you'll get a very posh accent and they sound like the king, the queen, whatever. They are very polite. And then you'll get people from London who are not polite at all with the... who have the cockney...

accent and they would just tell you straight. Like for instance, I was driving in London one day and this guy, driving in London is hard anyway. So I must have done something wrong and this guy starts shouting, this is fucking England, know? And I was just like, of course it is England.

Yes, of course.

It is England! And he was quite shocked when he heard that I could speak English and they just make the assumption that you're from a different country or you're an immigrant or whatever. That's why a lot of people say, is that your real voice Natasha?

wanted to get on that. I wanted to get on that because, you know, I get, I've received comments about my voice. People don't think it's real. Okay. They think like, I just, I can't act. Okay. That was just nothing, anything. But they think it's real. don't think I really talk like this. And you were talking about the way you speak and

Speaker 2 (23:12.364)

So talk about that as far as it goes in England, because yes, I know the Cockney accent is different, then you sound more... I don't know the different dialects, but I...

describe myself as clear, you know, so one of the reasons why I speak like this is because I'm from a place called Birmingham, West Midlands. I know you've got Birmingham, Alabama. And we have this accent that is considered the worst across the country. So it sounds as if we're singing.

and nobody could understand me when I arrived in London at the age of 11 asking for... I said something to the teacher to the effect of, I've lost me pumps, I haven't got me pumps and everyone was looking at each other. I was talking to my uncle about it and he said to me, we're going to have to get you to speak properly. This is not acceptable.

So he got me videos that's you know can tell my age from that so he got me some videos of the Queen's speech and Margaret Thatcher and I had to practice this every single day in order to speak properly so I used to go around this is absolutely ghastly and started getting a decent accent

and now I'm in between, I would say London and Birmingham. So I'm sort of like, I guess my accent is sort of up there where a lot of people are concerned because they're always going on about my accent. Oh my God, where did you grow up? Did you go to Cambridge? Did you go to Oxford? No, I went to BCU, one just down the road. So yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:14.646)

Yeah. It's a thing. People judging you based on the way you speak. And then I'm sure when you're speaking with people, when you had your surveying company and you're speaking with people on the phone and they're not catching it on the phone and then you show up in your body, it's a shock.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:39.758)

You've grown them off. Indeed. I would go all over the country because I used to do a lot of surveys in very expensive houses, central London houses, seven million pounds, 16 million pound houses. And eventually I did get myself a secretary, which made it difficult for people.

because she was Romanian with a Romanian accent. And that's when she said to me that was the first time she experienced racism in this country because they thought it was a foreign company when they heard her voice. So a lot of people refused to pay. There was a week that we cancelled 10 surveys because people refused to pay because they heard her voice. But when they heard my voice, they would say,

sorry, we thought it was a foreign company. I said, yes, it is a foreign company. This is a foreigner on the phone right now. What we're going to do is cancel your survey and you're going to find someone else to do it. Go and find a non-foreign person to go and do this survey. no, no, we're just apologising. You're not the same as... I'm not the same. my goodness. Yeah. Yeah.

I just, I, but I love that. Like the freedom and the having autonomy in your profession to be able to do that is something only many of us can only dream of. Right. You know, because a lot of the times and you know, when I had Dr. Kimberly Douglas on, we were talking about pricing.

You're in a situation, you need the money or whatever. if you could just tell people, you, you, you told me to get away from the house. Okay, we're done here. We're not going to do it. Or, you, you don't want a foreigner? okay. We can just cancel. I mean, that's lovely. So, have you been in situations where you wish you would have done things differently? Did you, did you start doing that over a period of time? Because that's probably something you just had to learn to start doing.

Speaker 1 (27:57.774)

I think the main thing was I found that if I took on a client that really didn't want to work with me and I was pandering to the experience all the time, it caused me so much problems. Like for instance, there was a guy that I, he came into quite a bit of money. So he came into a million pounds. So

My accountant friend asked me if I could go and help him invest in property So at the time I we went and bought 10 houses for him And I did the renovations and everything organized the renovations and everything So he gave me such a hard time And he was my prices were low. I undercharged and he said something

like, I own you, you don't own me, you work for me. And I said to him, he kept doing this. And my friend said to me, look, he's like this with everyone. And I think it was a couple of years I was working with this guy, he was earning about 90,000 a year from this. Didn't have to do anything. I took care of everything. I was earning

some sort of a small percentage from it and he gave me so much problems so much problems and I just thought I am never doing this again never ever working with anyone I don't want to work with he called me all sorts of names I mean the straw was when he called me some black something I just got like my god

I just went back to when my, like my stepdad, he was a light skinned person, used to call me a black shit and the guy called me a black shit and I just thought, you will never see me again. And I said to him, look, go and find another estate agent or letting agent to manage your property. I'm giving you one day to do this. And he said, do you know what, Natasha?

Speaker 2 (30:01.24)

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (30:21.162)

is joking. I said no I'm not joking and I just stopped doing everything. I will not work with anybody that is disrespecting me in that way. No way.

How long did you, so how long was this going on before you, did you say a year?

Two years. My friend would ask me, Natasha, don't worry about it. He's like this with everyone. What color is your friend? On this earth, to experience abuse from other people at work, you must be joking. You know?

What color was your friend who told you he's just joking?

a white guy, white guy. Yeah, but the thing is, it's always like, we've got to accept this. Would you accept? Yeah. So I said to him, you passed him on to me because you didn't want him as a customer yourself. You know, so he I I just thought it was out of order expecting me when he was shouting at me one day, my friend took the phone and started talking to calm down, calm down. No, she's this, she's that.

Speaker 2 (31:07.246)

Right.

Speaker 1 (31:30.37)

How dare she talk back to me? I don't think it's myself. Listen, my mom's not even talking to me like this. don't even understand why a customer, no. And when I released him, I gave him a day, told him to find somewhere else to look after his properties. And he wrote this long letter because he was a journalist and all sorts.

said to me that he cannot believe that I'm going to release him with his 10 properties and I won't get any more business and all this. And I tell you, a week later, someone came in with about 25 properties and said, Natasha, would you like to manage that? So sometimes you just have to release these ridiculous people out of your life in order for you to get something.

That's a lesson. is so true. I, and I talk about this because I talk about this crazy people that I worked with for 11 years that sucked up my time and drained me dry. I wouldn't be talking to you right now. This podcast wouldn't be happening. just, there was just no time, you know? And then the realize you can make just as much money, if not more money for less hassle.

Indeed.

Yeah. yeah. So, I mean, tell us, though, how do you get there? You know, because I mean, I know you're talking about your stepfather called you black shit, which is. I just can't believe that. And then, you know, obviously you've had your life experiences and things like that. How do you get to the point where you have so much confidence and.

Speaker 1 (33:16.77)

Mm.

Speaker 2 (33:24.706)

to like walk away or to say, know what, no more. Cause you were in it with this one guy and I'm sure other situations for a period of time before you were like, finally like, know what, fuck off, fuck you, you know, and be gone, which is basically what you said. I mean, that's for so many of the women who are listening, that is like our dream, you know, to be like, you know, to tell their boss or their employer to fuck.

all the way off and just exit the situation. But it's not always an option. how do you get yourself to the point or build yourself up to that period where you can just do that?

Well, do you know, I was thinking about this a few weeks ago. Why do I, why am I always able to do that? And I realised I've been able to do it since I was about 10. I've never ever wanted to be part of a group that didn't want me there. And I remember had my best friend in primary school always wanting to get into this group and

She used to say, she was a fantastic singer, but they didn't want her in the group. There was a group of five.

You're actually singing group. Yeah, I like a clicky group. Okay

Speaker 1 (34:47.458)

It was kind of a clicky group and the singing group but she's the best singer these people thought they could sing they couldn't sing I love thinking to myself you sound so ridiculous when you're singing I said to her why don't you start singing on your own no I want to be part of this group and I said to her why can't you just be you know just sit down and wait for things to come to you or do it yourself so that was me at 10

But the thing is that I was bullied at home, I was bullied at school, so I never fitted into any type of group. But I think one thing that shaped my life experience was when I started working for a solicitors firm when I was about 16 years old. And there were some brilliant people there. They were from Malaysia. And they would give me books to read and they would say to me that, look,

Natasha, you never have to start from the bottom. We're the ones, you know, that are making this, this happen. These people came out of university, didn't have any experience. just employed another solicitor and set up their firm. They didn't even know what they were doing, but I was the one that got them customers. I was the one that helped them build that business. And I did that for a couple of years.

But the thing is I saw how they worked and they never ever got into a situation where they were always pandering to people. were Indians, but they felt that they were so much more powerful. And if the white person came to them and said, we want you to do this, they never did, you see. But the thing is that...

One of the things that my mum has always taught us, if you're spending a pound, save a pound. So we always live within your means. So I've always had to save money. Even when things have been tight, I've had to save money just so that I'm in that financial position to say, do you know what, just get lost, just go away. I don't want to work with you. And being patient, you know, I've seen so many

Speaker 1 (37:08.46)

black people in business just fail because they're pandering to the white person. And these people have no respect for us when we're selling ourselves out to them, you know, when we're all begging for scraps and what have you. So the thing is that when you're there even feeling it, it might be tight because I've been here. I've had times when I didn't even have enough money to buy anything.

I remember my sister came to stay with me and we had rice and tomato ketchup in the cupboard. I just made rice and tomato ketchup and my sister's like, this is great, you know. And I said, it's because you're hungry. That's why it's so great.

Do not ever sell out to anyone, to yourself. It burns you out. It wears you out because you've got to stand in your power. You cannot lose yourself to these people. You just cannot.

And I love that. And it's like you can't even be successful really when you're not standing in it. You know, it's so funny. Just last night I was on the phone with one of my friends, guy friend of mine, and we're just talking about different celebrities and

And breathe. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:43.212)

the products and the brand deals they choose to associate themselves with and different celebrities who have tried to put out certain products that don't align with who they are, you know, and when we all know who those celebrities have been, people who put out hair care products, I'm not going to name them, who you're not checking for their hair, why would you put out a product for hair? Nobody's looking at your hair, right? You're not known for hair.

versus the people, the person who puts out a hair product and you're like, okay, her hair is the hair we all would love. But, you know, so of course that makes sense, it aligns. You think about, you know, we were talking about, I'll just bring up a white woman. We were talking about Gwyneth Paltrow and her whole, are you familiar with Goop and Goop and her? Yeah. Okay.

It's all ridiculous. so people think Gwyneth Paltrow is ridiculous too. I mean, but it's her. It aligns with her. It's who she is. Right. And I think that's why she's been successful. And I say that with anything you do. And then celebrities try to put out products and it's a fail. It doesn't matter who you are, what you're doing. If you're not aligned with it,

It doesn't work. same with when you're trying to, like you said, pander to people, be in spaces where they don't want you. It's never, it's never going to work out. I've experienced that in my own life. When I had my clothing line and I did okay with it. mean, you know, I, I did okay with it. You know, I had success with it.

But I felt like I was trying to force it. And I was going to straight down in the hole like bankruptcy broke, right? Trying to be like these other white girls and in a way they weren't trying to let me in. They weren't trying to let me into those spaces. I would catch them in my booths at market. I remember.

Speaker 2 (41:07.15)

There was a guy who worked for Victoria's Secret. I don't know who the hell this man was. OK, I was at market. He comes into my booth. Oh, my God, Erin. We were just talking about you in our meeting this morning. I'm like, who are you? I don't even know where fuck you are. Right? Yeah. But you're like, OK, yeah, what are you talking about me so you can knock me off? The girl from Neiman Marcus who wouldn't put my stuff in their stores, but I would catch her in my booth when I wasn't there, you know, if I stepped away.

So I was just trying to force myself to fit into that world when I worked in advertising. I'm forcing myself. Like these people do not want you here, girl. Like they do not want you here. And as soon as I step out and I do my own thing and I'm to the beat of my own drum, we're seeing, you know, success. I try to tell people this, but it's hard to explain that to people. A lot of times you just have to experience it because there's

that fear of not having the paycheck or not being backed by something bigger than you.

Exactly. I think that a lot of us black people, we have a scarcity mindset. And one of the things I always tell my children is that the thing is that we need to focus on ourselves because these people are learning from you. All those people hanging out in your booth from Victoria's Secret, they're coming to find out what the hell is going on. What is Erin doing? Yeah. And

We don't think of ourselves like that. We think, do you know what? I need to fit into that space. No, they want to know what's going on with you. My father-in-law used to say to me all the time, the only reason why you should go to work, Natasha, is to find out what the hell is going on in that place and get the fuck out. Yeah. Just find out how it works. Use their systems and get out and do your own thing.

Speaker 1 (43:14.878)

And I find that so many of us are so scared of just getting out and do those things. My brothers and sisters, most of them work for the government. And I see what's happening in America with all the layoffs because we were told go and work for the government. Go and work for, go and get a council job, go and get a civil service job because those are the safe.

jobs and now think everyone's looking around like, my God, those jobs are going. What are we going to do? I've always been of the notion to just build your skills from when you're young. Cause I started my first business when I was about 17 years old. All of a sudden I'm a, IT networker, installing networks into people's houses. Cause I taught myself.

Everyone was like, you're crazy. You're absolutely crazy. But I used to work two days a week and I did it for 10 years. Two days a week. All of my brothers and sisters were like, no, just get a steady job, steady pension, steady, steady. There's something wrong with you. We always knew as you were growing up, there's something wrong with you. They've all said it because I'm saying I'm striking out on my own. I encourage my children to do the same.

One is at university, my daughter's at university right now. I'm helping her set up her own clothing line. She has been stylish from day one, so do that. I'm not even into fashion, but you know. Learn the business skills. I say to them, learn the business skills, get the right type of support around you. Find out what you can get from university or your networks and get it done.

Yeah, I love that. Tell me what your father-in-law said. Go to work.

Speaker 1 (45:15.566)

Go to work, find out what the hell is going on and get out of there. Yeah. Like what are you doing at work for this paycheck? He wasted his life working as a, I think it was a manager and he started a mechanics business and he said after when he started that business, he realized at the age of 60 when they laid him off and had nothing that he should have done that years ago.

that you should have just started his own business. But yeah, I think too many of us as black people, we go into this workplace, I'm going to dress like them. I'm going to straighten my hair. I'm going to wear this wig. I'm going to do this. I'm going to be as European as I can in order to fit in. You will never fit in. Your skin is darker. There's always something to say. I was working in this.

development and I was the only black person, not even black woman, the only black person, 400 people and they, I heard them saying, there's a black girl in the office, there's a black girl in the office. And they came and looked over into my booth and I was like, would you like me to do some entertainment today?

Speaker 2 (46:43.406)

We do all this and I've said this before we do all this especially black women and we get the degrees we get the certifications we get all the shit and we get the job they hire us because maybe they have to or what whatever happens I don't know you're qualified they hire you but then they don't they don't move you up they don't give you the same opportunity so you've done all this stuff you've played their game

And then don't give it to you. And then, you know, 10, 15, 20 years down the line, we're like traumatized. We're, like you said, completely burnt out, right? But you think about what I, especially here in America, what our ancestors have done. I, when I talk to my dad and we're driving through parts of St. Louis City that are abandoned, nobody's in anymore. And he'll tell me how it used to be.

you know, he'll tell me about all the black businesses that used to be there, right? All the things, but everybody moved out of those of the of the inner city out, I guess, to be around the white people. I know my parents did. And those businesses were no longer needed. And then, you know, I guess it's sort of a ripple effect. But I wish I could see it. But we have so much talent and

and creativity and ingenuity. It's crazy, but I think a lot of times, well, I know that we've been brainwashed to feel like we cannot do what you and I are talking about, right?

think we've been brainwashed to hate each other. That's one of the things.

Speaker 2 (48:31.656)

Absolutely not.

Yeah, and we've been brainwashed in terms of light skinned, dark skinned, who gets what. We've been brainwashed because my mum talks all the time. I was going to do a Jamaican accent, but I thought, no, it's not going to be good enough. My mum says to me, why are you employing black people? Why are you employing And the thing is that I will say to her,

The thing is that there's good and bad in every race. But the way we're always down on each other. this black person did this to me. This lots of black people have done a lot to me, but I still keep going because at the end of the day, not everybody is bad. And I think sometimes what I do find with a lot of people is that they

They're just not professional in certain ways and we just need to professionalise a lot of things that are going on in our lives. Just professionalise it, get the right support. If you need, I say to my family all the time, if you need support, get the support because we need to get counselling. I mean, the environment that I grew up in, counselling is essential for...

for us, but a lot of my brothers and sisters refuse to get counselling. But I know that there's like a mental health issue within the family, even in the extended family. And my sisters, because of work as well, have been sectioned. And that was one week of each other. And because they didn't know how to speak to...

Speaker 1 (50:24.258)

the professionals within that environment. They stayed there a bit longer. I had to go there to go and speak to them. And I've been teaching people how to navigate this Eurocentric world because it's difficult.

Explain sectioned, explain sectioned that we don't say that in the states. So explain what that is. I mean, committed.

committed? Yeah, so... OK. Sorry. OK. So, my sisters, when I say sectioned, is that they... Yeah, they were committed. They had to go to hospital for mental health. They were detained under the Mental Health Act. Worn out, burnt out, not able to...

think for themselves, everything became so overwhelming and the authorities felt that it would be best for them to have a hospital stay. And this is about, okay, it's the trauma that we had gone through when we were younger. But the thing is that I think a lot of the traumas that we experience is so generational.

and it's passed down. And if we do not stop it in its tracks, we are going to affect the next generation. So we have to get that therapy. We have to get trauma-informed coaching. We've got to get the right support that we need in order to move forward.

Speaker 2 (52:07.82)

I want to go back because we talked about this briefly because I'm going to have this conversation many times when we're talking about black people mistreating each other and how we've been brainwashed into that. So many comments, so many comments about that. I've experienced it. There are the handful of people who are in the comments source like, I don't know what you're talking about.

I've never experienced that. I'm just like, well, you're in the minority, ma'am. You know, it's just like, haven't had it so much at work because like I say, when I was working for other people, I was usually the only one. I, and even when I first started to work for people, there were older black women who were very kind to me and very

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:03.126)

much in a mentor position to me and I took advantage of that. But personally, yes, yes, yes. for sure. Right. Just disgusting things people will say just the level of hate. Yeah. It's just like, what did I do to you? What did I do to you? Yeah. So, I mean, I guess that's a thing, obviously, where you are as well. just how we treat each other. have

definitely been, I want to have an intellectual conversation about it, but I don't have the tools or the bandwidth. I don't have the tools to articulate what it is. I know what I think it is, and I'm trying to think about it more before I sit down and have this conversation with multiple women. So I actually want to maybe invite you back to have that conversation. But what is your experience with that?

with the how we treat each other particularly in the workplace when you're

Yeah, think it's a major problem. I think a lot of the times, I was thinking about it as well, actually, over the past few months. was looking at how, when we grew up, there was always so much competition between us, you see. And we always had to... I've never been a person that has competed.

with my brothers or sisters, I'm always pleased for them. But they think it's not very genuine, know, Natasha wants something, how could she be so happy for me? And I've always been happy for other black people. But they come with this level of suspicion that someone is after something, someone's trying to sabotage them. And this is something that just goes on in a lot of people's minds.

Speaker 1 (55:08.45)

I remember I was working as a director of surveillance somewhere in London and I saw how this guy treated me in comparison to the lighter skinned black women and the white people that were there. He's a dark skinned black man and he's talking to me.

as if he hasn't got any type of manners and I'm thinking, how are you talking to me like this? And I'm just counting to 10 while he's talking. I said to him when I was leaving because he, I mean, it just escalated into something else when I decided to leave. But I said to him that you actually hate yourself.

And I think that you need to use the therapist that you've got to explore that. And it's a lot of self-hatred that is within the community. It's a lot of competition that is in the community. People, like I say about my voice, they think, my God, she's a white man lover, you know, and she'll be more accepted by white people. And it's almost like there's a competition that Natasha is going to be.

accepted by white people, so therefore I don't really like her and I'm not going to be friends with her, instead of us thinking that we're going to help each other up. And they cannot believe it sometimes when I say, do you know what? It's so good to see another face in here. They think it's not genuine. But it's a lot of self-hatred that we have within our community.

that we're always looking outwards for others to do for us when we could be doing for ourselves.

Speaker 2 (57:07.406)

Yes, yes we are. Yes we are. And gosh, we are. you know, I'm one of those people, you know, I work for myself and it's not always easy. It's a lot of responsibility. Everybody cannot do it, I think, but more of us can do it and create jobs for more of us.

Yeah.

so we have better, more positive and powerful experiences. I mean, we're probably not going to see that in our lifetime. but it's definitely possible. again, you know, everybody isn't meant to work for themselves. I, I'm not sitting here saying that they should, but I wish that, cause you know, somebody got mad at me and one of the comments, this is a woman who, guess she ended up calling me in the,

girl, it was on my podcast, and he called us coons. And I'm like, okay, because we were talking about the difficulty we have working with other black females, or we had, okay. Again, I am not going to put everybody in the same box because my best client right now best client I've ever had black man. Amazing. Love him.

you know, believes in me, pays right on time. And you're talking like you could just send them a five figure estimate. send it to me, pays it, you know, completely great experience. But then I've had experiences that have not been great, where you said we need to become more professional in the way that we interact with each other and the way that we handle business.

Speaker 2 (58:59.766)

I talked to Dr. Kimberly Douglas about it last week. It'll be last week because I'm going to put this up on this week. When we have this level of familiarity with each other that allows us to...

I guess put our guard down and assume that certain things are owed to us just because... Yeah, and that's not okay.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:29.184)

Yeah, I mean, the thing is that I was, was when I had my surveying firm and I was in the office and one of the ladies that was working with was a mixed race girl and she felt that I shouldn't be earning so much and she was earning so little. And I said to her, so remind me of what industry you came from again, because you're working two days a week.

And I'm paying you very helpfully here for what you do So I was paying her something like Back in the day on pain or something like 200 pounds a day Which is equivalent to I don't know 280 or something dollars a day I'm getting pennies while you're getting big big money and all this sort of business and I said I've got overheads would you speak?

to the insurance company that you've just come from like that. But because you think, my sister, you can speak to me anyhow. And that's why I say that we need to be a lot more professional in the way we are with each other. yeah. If I'm in business, I'm in business. It's just I'm like everybody else that has the overheads that have things to pay.

and just treat me like a person. But they think we seem to think that we're all in it together. And, you know, with the pricing thing, they expect discounts, they expect it for free. I've trained for seven years to become a surveyor and you're telling me that I must go and survey your house for free. And then if anything goes wrong, Natasha didn't do a good job, you know, ready to sue me. Now it then cost me money because I did something

for you for free? No.

Speaker 2 (01:01:25.934)

It's almost like, okay, so if your prices are gonna be the same as the white man's prices, then I'm gonna just go with the white man. Because they assume that the white man is gonna be better at it. People can get angry all they want, okay? People will say shit in the comments, and a lot of the people who are talking all that shit in the comments are collecting a check. They're not.

Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52.301)

Yeah.

They're not working. They're not. They don't have their own thing because if you did have your own thing, you know what I'm talking about. And you probably would have experienced what I'm talking about, right? You know, when my my dad and I talk about this too and white people do it to us too, you know, we do it to Latin community. We expect certain deals and prices because we're dealing with certain communities. And he would say.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:21.292)

My dad would talk about how white boys would pass up. had an auto body shop in the inner city and they would drive, you know, 35 minutes into the city, pass up all the shops, the big dealerships and things like that to come to him because they were expecting a deal, expecting a deal while at the same time, expecting the same quality of work when they had state of the art equipment, state of the art machinery, whatever to do the work.

This is not something I'm making up. This is real. Like people who are talking shit most of the time, they do not know what they're talking about. And it's not that, cause this, this platform is for black women. Yes. Or, know, other people are more than welcome to listen, but you know, my target is black women. So we have to be accountable to each other for our actions and how we're handling ourselves in our business. It's not that I'm up here just talking shit and shitting on black women.

Or me or my guests are shitting on black women. We're having experiences. Can we have real conversations here? Can we talk about it? Some people we can't talk about. A friend of mine called the other day. She asked me, have I done this episode? Did you do the episode? Have you done this episode? Because she's black. She had a customer or somebody, a potential client come to her for her consulting.

Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48.206)

she gave her the price and the answer immediately was like, you know, like, like I didn't realize, you know, but a white man can throw out a price and nobody's gonna, nobody's gonna try to bargain barter, get him down. Yeah. Push him, you know, nobody's gonna do that. Black people won't do it to him, but we'll do it to each other. You know, that's my problem.

I mean, I've had so many people that have come because I remember I was dating this guy once and he absolutely brilliant, engineer, but his prices were really low. And I went onto his website because I used to do websites in my spare time. Yeah. And I said to him, I noticed that you haven't got your picture on the website.

He said, I wouldn't get any work if I put my picture on the website. I thought, you know what? I'm putting my picture on the website. The whole team's around me. They get all these old white men. They're going up. We're going up on the website. Natasha's the boss. Natasha Williams, director. That's it. So I don't care who you are. So you know who you're dealing with and when. I would say said it to me. it's so different for you.

But the thing is that I used to get a lot of African people that used to ask me to show my credentials before I went out to do a survey. And I just started cancelling them. Look, and I would say to my secretary sometimes, this is the accent and I'll do all the accents for her because I've traveled across Africa. I'd say, look, listen, if they're asking for my credentials, tell them we haven't got any space.

I have said to them, would you ask the white man for his credentials? You wouldn't. A few of them have come back and said, the survey wasn't good enough. I should have gone with you in the first place. Go and find another white person to do that survey for you. They'll come on the phone, see that Natasha is a black person. Can I get a deal on this? No. That's the price. Why would you think?

Speaker 2 (01:06:05.634)

Yeah.

I would say to people on the phone, why would you think you'd get a deal here? You know why? I just thought you were a bit open. No, I've got bills to pay just like you.

I'm desperate enough. I need the money so bad that I'm willing to reduce my rate for somebody who I don't even know. I've never met. have no relationship with.

But when you reduce your prices, they know that they look for faults, they look for the low quality, they look for all sorts to complain about. Every time you give a reduced price, that is when they treat you like you are shit.

Absolutely true the worst clients you can ever have telling you and and and and And this is for my black women who you know if you've been laid off if you are in a toxic situation And your workplace if you're looking to do something on your own You've got to stand firm on your price. It is a struggle for me. Like I have struggled with this. I've talked about it's very hard for me

Speaker 2 (01:07:19.498)

Every time I put one out, I'm just like, my gosh, I have this anxiety about it, around it. Because also, we have to remember, this is another thing I think is really important. Pricing is relative because.

We're putting out a price, say, to maybe a non-black person. We're putting out a price. And we think it's so much. But they're charging.

into the stratosphere, right? So we're hesitant to put out a that's probably undercutting us, that's probably low and struggling and they take it, but they're used to thinking, you know, things are gonna cost what they cost or what other people are charging. So we're experiencing all this stress because we're trying to project and figure out what they think is going to be.

too much, we're not even starting at the same spot. Our foundations for where we're starting from, our jumping off point when it comes to pricing, totally different places.

Yeah. Well, the thing is, and this is why I say that a lot of black people have a scarcity mindset that we, we tend to, we've been told that we are rubbish from a very young age. As soon as we can start speaking. They've told us that we are not worth anything. So for us to even get things for ourselves.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59.072)

is a problem to them sometimes. It's become a problem to us. We've internalized it so much. And I think anybody that needs, that wants to start their own business really has to understand pricing. They've got to understand how much they need to live on. Because I say, I used to say this to all my clients, because I used to do trauma-informed coaching.

the people who were struggling with their finances or struggling with something else. And, you know, how are you going to, how are you going to live if you're on that low price? Why should you, why should you have 10 customers when you could have two? know, so give your, what is, what does your lifestyle look like? What, how do you want to live? Because a lot of people ask me, how did you manage the fund? I think I stayed in.

Well, I was in Jamaica for about 12 months just resting. I used to send pictures of my feet to my sister to say, look at me now. How do you do that? never amount to anything. How do you?

Get to be in Jamaica for 12 months resting. I mean, come on now. This is a woman we need to be listening to.

No, because the thing is, I felt that I was worn down in the UK with the racism, with a lot of things that was going on. And to be fair, I got stuck during the pandemic. They did say to me, would you like to go back to England? And I was just like, no, I'll extend my holiday. they just extended it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:42.86)

And I stayed there for about 12 months and then I came back for a little bit and then I went back for six months again. But the thing is that nobody in my family has been able to do that because I'm always, I set rules for myself. I don't do low pricing for anything. I'd rather not charge anything. I'd rather you not even, well, I just won't do anything if it's not the right price. I remember Naomi Campbell said in the nineties, I will not,

go to work for less than 20,000 a day. I just thought, why can't I be like Naomi Campbell? Yeah. Why are we, we've internalised a lot of things. you're not good enough. You're not this. You're not that. And that's, I've been having counselling since I was about 16 years old. And I think I got rid of a lot of my limiting beliefs and started standing in my power. It took me a long time.

to do that with my family, but with everyone else outside. I have no problem standing in my power. I have no problem being polite and telling them to go to hell. You know, I have no problem with that at all.

So tell us how did you decide or start this research journey so you can tell us about it and how we can be a part of it because

You know, it sounds, I can't wait to see what you find. Probably what I kind of suspect, but it'll be nice to have it in actual numbers.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20.98)

Yeah, yeah. So the thing is that I started this research journey when I actually I came back from Jamaica and I was just I what I did I qualified as a trauma informed coach. So I started coaching mainly black women about their experiences at work and what we can do to make the environment better for them and what have you. And every time it came story after story

about how hard it was in the workplace. I've had women that had hysterectomies because their health has just failed. People with stress and anxiety. So I decided that I will start researching this cost of black excellence. One day I just woke up, I thought, what is black excellence actually costing us within the Eurocentric environment? And I'm finding that it's costing us our health, it's costing us our

piece is costing us almost anything. And a lot of people are dying trying to be excellent within these sort of organisations, even sometimes with your own business. Because the thing is that we need a support system around us. We need to heal before we can start achieving whatever we want to achieve. So, yeah, I started putting things out on LinkedIn.

and it started to gain a bit more momentum. And I've seen that, well, I've got about 465 plus, I think, from today, of people saying the same thing over and over again, black professionals all the time. And one lady did say, which I agree with totally, is that,

she feels that black people need to start their own businesses. They need to start their own thing. But then again, we've got issues with access to funding. We've got issues in terms of support. And I want to build all that with the cost of black excellence. So I'm putting together the support system for black people when and if they need it. So I do ask a question on the survey.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44.46)

Would you like to know more about other professionals that can sort of help you? Because we need the accountants, we need the lawyers, we need the coaches, we need people that can support us while we run our businesses, the coaches that can help us in our careers, how to plan your career. Just go about it in a different way. There are organisations that will accept you and say, yeah, this is a great place to work, but more often than not,

I believe that you need to get in there, find out what's going on and get the hell out and start your own thing. Yeah.

I couldn't agree more. Well, I'm going to share the link. I'll put it on the screen, but it'll also be in the show notes on Spotify. It'll be in the description on YouTube. So basically, the requirements for taking the survey would be just black professionals, male, female.

Male, female, black professionals within the UK, US, Australia and Canada. So it's the Eurocentric world really. So I'm trying to gather 40,000 voices so that we can start making policy changes, start changing how organisations look at us and have access to funding to start our own businesses.

That's amazing. That's amazing. I don't even think I knew that part. Did we talk about that?

Speaker 1 (01:16:15.852)

No? That's great.

I love it. I love it. my God. This has been such a fun conversation. This has been so good. Natasha's going to come back. I'm telling you now. I kind of talked to her about it, but I'm going to have her come back. She needs to come back for some panel discussions that I think she would be great as a member of. And then obviously, you know, when you're finished with your study, I think it'll be good to come back and...

take us through the highlights because this is important. I've done videos about our health, mentally, physically, all of that, and to actually put some real numbers to what I found, but even, you know, I love it. This is exactly the kind of information that I'm looking to share with my audience. So, anywho.

Do you want to tell people how they can find you? Social media channels? Things like that.

Yeah, so I'm on LinkedIn and it's just LinkedIn and Natasha-Williams and the website is called www.costofblackexcellence.com. So nice and simple.

Speaker 2 (01:17:37.71)

Such good information. She's I mean, you guys can see I can get into a conversation with this woman. We could just keep going. We've been on here for a minute. So I got to wrap it up. But yes, very fun chat, fun conversation and love, love hearing the perspective from a non American black person in Britain.

Yeah.

It's fun.

Thank you so much, Erin. Thank you.

Thank you. Okay, guys. Well, thank you guys so much for joining us, and we will see you in the next video.