Abby The Attorney (00:00)

My first legal assistant that I was assigned was an older white woman who flat out said she was not going to do any work for that little black girl. She said that out loud out of her own mouth. So then eventually something happened. I don't remember the details of exactly what it was. Something happened that let me know she was sabotaging me. There had been so many things that happened up into that point that I said, I

I have to either figure out how to survive here or I have to start making an exit strategy. I had enough flexibility that I thought I could survive the racism and sexism. And I didn't really realize how much it was piling on me until I left. Because I couldn't control certain things that were happening at work, I became really, really

Erin Braxton (00:40)

Yeah.

Abby The Attorney (00:54)

controlling of my weight and diet bordering along ED. And I was very, very thin. There were days in a row where I would get up, get my son to school and get back in the bed and just like watch Daria for hours, knowing I have some deadline I need to meet at work. I have something coming up I need to do, but I just couldn't bring myself to get my clothes on and get to the office.

Erin Braxton (01:27)

Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee No Cream podcast. My name is Erin Braxton and I am your host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, we share what I like to call Coffee No Cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in business and in life just because we are black. And today I am super excited about our guest. We have Abby the attorney as she is known on the social media channels, TikTok, Instagram. And I found Abby because Abby was talking about

being a black woman as an attorney and working in these corporate environments and some of the struggles and things that she went through. And I asked her to come on the podcast. She agreed. We had an amazing conversation. She talked about her struggles within the firm. We talked about not having the energy or the will or the desire to even stand up when you're dealing with adversity in the workplace. We talked about her leaving the country to go

figure her stuff out, her exit plan out of the law firms that she was working with. We talked about so many things. We talked about being used as a black woman in these corporate spaces. It was an amazing conversation and I know that you guys are going to enjoy it. Before we get started though, I want to ask that you guys please like, please subscribe, share the podcast with everyone.

Okay, one of the things I'm trying to do with Coffee No Cream is to build a community that uplifts Black women everywhere, to give them the strength and the encouragement to keep on carrying on in their daily lives at work, in corporate America, and whatever it is they want to do. We also have a Facebook community where we continue the conversation. Everybody can come on to social media. Everybody can come on video.

and share and bear their souls and their stories. Everybody can't do that. People have jobs. They don't want to be under a microscope. They don't want to be in the spotlight. We have a safe place in the Facebook community where we do that. So please join us over there. The link is below. I think that's all of the housekeeping I have. And with that said, let's jump into this episode with Abby the attorney. Welcome Abby. How are you today?

Abby The Attorney (03:42)

I'm good, how are you?

Erin Braxton (03:44)

I'm so good. I'm so excited to have you on the show. For those of you who don't know who this woman is, she has a great TikTok page, Abby the attorney, as she's known on TikTok. And she shares some really amazing stories. So I cannot wait to talk to you today.

Abby The Attorney (04:06)

So guys, if you're looking for me for immigration, this is my nom de plume. You'll find me at April Holloway, LinkedIn. ⁓ But go ahead and call me Abby in that way that I know you're from TikTok and what we're about to talk about.

Erin Braxton (04:24)

So

for those of you who are joining us for the very first time here on Coffee No Cream, we share what I like to call coffee no cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in life and business just because we are black women. And today, Abby is going to share with us one of her very interesting coffee no cream moments. So I'm just gonna turn it over to Abby, tell us one of your coffee no cream moments.

Abby The Attorney (04:48)

It was hard for me to pick just one moment. Yeah. But this one definitely was one of those, okay, this seals the deal. This is not in my head. I can't get away from this moments. ⁓ and the law firm that I worked for, it was very common that when there was an event going on, they would buy a full table for the event. And then attorneys could

request to attend that particular event. did this with ⁓ sports things, with award ceremonies, all kinds of things. You could take yourself or take a client. ⁓ So one of the ones that we got an email for was called the Great Locomotive Chase. This is when they bring out one of the ⁓ trains that was captured by the Confederacy out onto the main plaza.

and everyone goes to celebrate this Confederate victory. And the firm bought ⁓ tickets for this event and sent an email out who wants to attend. And it was a moment where I said, everything that's happened to me up to this point, I have been in my head about whether or not I'm overreacting or

if this is just how life is, this is just the way that things are and I just need to stop fighting it. But that email made me go, no, this can't be it.

Erin Braxton (06:24)

Okay, so what state were you in? Okay, okay, so they bring out the Confederate train or they buy tickets to the Confederate celebrated event. Did you speak up on this? Did you say anything? Did you bring it to their attention in case they could just act like, you know, we didn't think about that.

Abby The Attorney (06:28)

I was in Georgia.

did not bring it up to management. I did speak to some of the other attorneys about it. The reason I didn't bring that particular event up to management was because we'd already gotten to a back and forth over the decorations inside one of our ⁓ conference rooms. So all of our conference rooms had a theme. One was like nautical, one was astronauts, and one was called the Civil War Room. And I had complained because the Civil War Room

only had Confederate memorabilia in it. It had Confederate money. It had Confederate clothing. And the response to my complaint was, well, there's a bust of Abraham Lincoln. And my response to that was he didn't want slaves to be freed either. He literally said he would just send us all down to South America if he could do that and save the union. So I don't really see the depiction of Abraham Lincoln as a ⁓

representation of both sides of the Civil War. And we had been in, let's say, conversation about that for a few months and it was not going my way. So, and just to understand the dynamic that was happening here and why would even, why would I agree to work at this place and then complain about that? So I worked there the summer before I graduated from law school. And at that time they were in a different building and they were expanding.

Erin Braxton (08:14)

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (08:17)

⁓ pretty quickly. And so they put me for that summer into like this bus terminal that they had purchased to use for additional office space. I wasn't in the main office. And then in between that summer and me finishing law school to come to work full time, they moved into an office building that they built on their own to house them and all their expansion. And so I was not aware of the Civil War conference room until I came back as a full time employee.

Erin Braxton (08:46)

Yeah, so they, what do you call it? They commissioned the design of this office to have Confederate memorabilia. ⁓

Abby The Attorney (08:59)

Or maybe somebody just had it at their house. I have no idea where it came from.

Erin Braxton (09:02)

So, give me the setup though at the firm. ⁓ You're a black, a new black attorney. What was it looking like as far as the ⁓ ratios, the percentages?

Abby The Attorney (09:16)

dynamics of the summer when I went in as an intern, there was one other black attorney. Um, and he was, he wasn't a partner yet, but he did become a partner. Um, he was very well liked, very well known. And I saw him as someone who picked his battles very carefully. And, um, he was a very good mentor in terms of being a lawyer.

Erin Braxton (09:36)

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (09:44)

But I didn't get a whole lot of how to be a black lawyer from him. His experience was just different from mine. was a guy and he was into sports. But he did tell me during the summer, as you're going out with different attorneys, look at their style, look at how they do their depositions and kind of decide what you want your style to be, which was great advice. I hadn't thought about it before. And he also told me...

try to work with as many partners as you can this summer, because when it comes time for them to decide who they're going to hire, you want as many people as possible to be able to say positive things about you. So he gave me good advice about navigating being an attorney, but there was nothing really about being black. Now, by the time I went to work back there full time, they had hired another black woman in the meantime. Well, ⁓ she and I got along really well, but we did.

toned down how well we got along at work. ⁓ And we hung out outside of work, but didn't really tell people.

Erin Braxton (10:45)

Mmm.

Now that's that that's what I want to talk more about that because that that is interesting. ⁓ You know, you know, so many things have come up in these comments, but we're going to circle back around to that. Your your friendship at work because. Yeah, OK, so did she say anything though? This other black attorney, did she raise this as a concern with management? This room?

Abby The Attorney (11:22)

No, I would say that she was less argumentative than me. ⁓ and there are probably a, there are a lot of dynamics that go into that. One thing I think that she would agree on is that there wasn't a, I was the much more argumentative person. Very clearly. I was more argumentative and I was not as friendly. That's those are facts, right? People always presumed.

that she was more argumentative and less friendly because she was dark skinned.

Erin Braxton (11:58)

Carl,

Abby The Attorney (12:02)

That was

a frequent thing that happened between us.

Erin Braxton (12:06)

Yeah, yeah. And now question, you seem friendly, you know, we don't know each other well at all, but ⁓ you seem friendly, you know, like a very friendly person. Are you generally friendly? Are you choosing not to be as friendly at work for specific reasons?

Abby The Attorney (12:24)

went into work that first year being very bubbly and wanting to make friends. I thought that I had arrived at the last place that I would ever work. And then over the five years that I was there, I became much more closed off and not as friendly. I didn't visit people's offices for chit chat, ⁓ but I was always

more challenging of the status quo, like that stayed the same. just became more and more reclusive.

Erin Braxton (13:02)

Yeah, and this incident with the room when you brought it to management, you were still new?

Abby The Attorney (13:11)

I was still new and I brought it up in conjunction with a different issue. The first legal assistant, so on my TikTok you heard me complain about a legal assistant who I gave a bad review to. ⁓ That was actually at a different firm. But at this firm, my first legal assistant that I was assigned was an older white woman who flat out said she was not going to do any work for that little black girl. She said that out loud out of her own mouth.

⁓ Before she said that, before people knew that it was a problem that needed to be corrected, she was just throwing my tapes. That's how old I am. The young lawyers watching. We used to dictate everything. She would just throw my tapes behind her desk and would not transcribe them. ⁓ So I was looking for work that I had done, couldn't find things, and she was saying she wasn't getting them.

Erin Braxton (13:54)

older than you.

Abby The Attorney (14:09)

And I was just confused about what was happening with the work. And so then eventually something happened. I don't remember the details of exactly what it was. Something happened that let me know she was sabotaging me. And when I went to the partner about it, there was a partner who was assigned to her and then I was the associate that was assigned to her. So I went to the partner who was also assigned to her to talk about what was going on.

And he came to me and said that he couldn't believe that out of her mouth, she said she was not doing work for that little black girl. He said that they had been working together for years and he couldn't believe that that's what she said. And so he fired her on the spot. Wow.

Erin Braxton (14:55)

Okay, okay, okay, okay, I didn't know how that was gonna end, okay? Okay, and how long had she been there, did you know?

Abby The Attorney (14:59)

But so.

She had been working with him for some years and she felt comfortable and confident that she could say that to him and that nothing would happen, but he was not that kind of person. I have another story I could tell about him. Unfortunately, even though we shared an assistant, I was not assigned to him for any work purposes. I very rarely interacted with him as far as work was concerned. ⁓

Erin Braxton (15:06)

Mmm.

Abby The Attorney (15:29)

But there was another situation that he saved me in. I wish that he could have been a partner that I did more direct work for, but he wasn't. ⁓ I'll go ahead and tell that story just really quickly. I was having an issue with an adjuster who kept being incredibly forward and trying to invite me to do things with him, bordering on sexual harassment. And I didn't know what...

Erin Braxton (15:39)

Yeah, yeah, I want to hear it.

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (15:56)

to do about it. So I went to a partner that I was assigned to and his response was, what are you complaining about? Do you think that I got all of my work? I'm trying to remember exactly the exact words that he used. Do you think that all the work that I've got is because I'm smart? No, it's because people like me. Do you want people to like you?

Erin Braxton (16:21)

Okay and this attorney, this partner says what?

Abby The Attorney (16:28)

he said for me to start sending him the emails, I was getting these suggestive emails from the suggestor, send him the emails. He will write a response for me. And then I am to send that response to the suggestor. And these were things like trying to invite me to events that were outside the scope of our work.

Erin Braxton (16:36)

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (16:52)

Like it was normal that we would take clients out to a Braves game, for example. It was not normal for you to invite me to a cigar lounge.

Erin Braxton (17:02)

Gotcha.

Abby The Attorney (17:04)

Right. It was not normal for him to inquire. If the firm is having an event that all clients are invited to, it was not normal for him to inquire. Is Abby going to be there? It was not normal for him to take his ring off. If ever I was around his wedding ring, you know, things like that. ⁓ and so this went on for a while. And then the same partner I was talking about earlier, ⁓ he came to my office and he asked me,

Point blank, no fluff, no, how you doing? Is this happening? And I said, yeah, I don't know what to do about it. He said, don't worry. And I never heard from that adjuster again.

Erin Braxton (17:47)

So tell me what, okay, so the partner that is rescuing you kind of has your back, this partner guy. When you come to him with the whole Confederate memorabilia room, what happened with that? What does he say?

Abby The Attorney (18:06)

So, sorry, I didn't finish that story. So what happened is, he, I didn't talk to you about the Confederate memorabilia. He fires the lady on the spot, yeah? And that's the end of that particular interaction. I get assigned to another assistant and he gets a different assistant. We're no longer sharing assistance. Another partner came to my office and he wanted to gloat about, you've had some negative things to say about our firm with regards to.

you know, racism and sexism. But look, that lady was fired on the spot when she said something racist, so isn't that really good that we did that? And I said to him, but we still have the Civil War room.

Erin Braxton (18:47)

Was that the first time you were brought up the Civil Yes.

Abby The Attorney (18:50)

That was the first time that I brought it up to somebody that was in a management kind of like a leadership position. his response was that what I said earlier, but there's Abraham Lincoln in there. And I was like, Abraham Lincoln didn't really want to freeze. Like, so that's not really adequate. And he was just like, Hmm. Okay. Well, I came down here to say something good and you turned it into something negative.

Erin Braxton (18:58)

Mm-hmm.

Gaslighting. So, okay, so you said we were talking about, you know, the event that they purchased tickets to and this had preceded that. Did you ever bring it up again? Did you say anything else again? I mean, was that the extent of the conversation?

Abby The Attorney (19:36)

That was the extent of the conversation. There had been so many things that happened up until that point that I said, I have to either figure out how to survive here or I have to start making an exit strategy. I was there for five years. I vacillated between, am I making an exit strategy and am I trying to conform myself to stay here quite a bit?

I went back and forth for a long time and I would try to soothe myself by saying, make good money here and I have flexibility here and within two years I had earned enough credibility in my work product that I was doing things like I leave work every day at four o'clock just so can go to the gym and have a nice evening and nobody would question it.

I would block my calendar off for like two weeks at a time and take a vacation. Nobody questioned it. I had enough flexibility that I thought I could survive the racism and sexism. And I didn't really realize how much it was piling on me until I left.

Erin Braxton (20:45)

Yeah.

Well, you never do. It's like, and I've been in some really tense, stressful situations. Hell, last year I lost a very toxic client and you never realize how bad it is until you get on the other side of it. ⁓ I want to circle back though with the black partner. Did you ever talk to him about this? You never had this conversation with this man? Like you never brought it up?

Abby The Attorney (21:19)

We had some conversations and his response was always something along the lines of you have to be choosy in what you want to complain about. And I think now that I'm older and I look back on it, I think I did not do a good job of explaining to him what was happening to me.

I just assumed that he would know. But now I realized there's no way that this man truly knew or understood what was happening from my perspective. The jokes that he would hear and he would speak out sometimes if somebody sent something like an email blast that was inappropriate, he would email blast back.

But the things that he was rallying against were only probably about, you know, let's say 20 % of what was happening to me. I was getting all kinds of sexualized, racialized comments and commentary. ⁓ somebody inappropriately grabbed me at a company event before, ⁓

Erin Braxton (22:27)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (22:46)

And I just didn't explain all these things to him. didn't tell him what I'm, this is what I'm really struggling with. And honestly, I didn't tell anybody because I didn't have the vocabulary to really explain it.

Erin Braxton (22:54)

Right.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. In that position, well, I want to ask like how you were feeling working at that place, because we touch on there's ⁓ certain things that continue to come up. Like, you know, we continue to see when I'm talking to black women about this, like the, you know, the physical symptoms, the emotional symptoms, you know, those sorts of things. Were you experiencing any of that?

Abby The Attorney (23:33)

yeah. I was, because I couldn't control certain things that were happening at work, I became really, really controlling of my weight and diet bordering along ED. I was only eating 900 calories a day. I was exercising twice a day. I was not letting myself eat anything after seven o'clock and I was very, very thin.

like the most compliments I've ever received on my weight because nobody realized that I was truly stressed out. And on the other end, I was also making really bad decisions that had to do with my depression over going to work. I mean, there were days in a row where I would get up, get my son to school and get back in the bed and just like watch Daria.

Erin Braxton (24:10)

Right, right.

Abby The Attorney (24:31)

for hours knowing I have some deadline I need to meet at work. I have something coming up I need to do, but I just couldn't bring myself to get my clothes on and get to the office. You know? Yeah.

Erin Braxton (24:44)

No, that's interesting. ⁓ Before I ask you how it all works out or how it turns around, I want to go back to your black friend in the office and that whole dynamic and how you knew and why you chose because, you know, I did a video a couple of weeks ago about the way black women treat each other because it's come up a lot how

mean we can be to each other, right? Especially in the workplace, it's come up a lot. And you found a friend. One of the reasons I think that it happens is, ⁓ you know, we have this whole crabs in a bucket barrel mentality a lot of times when we find ourselves in these positions, when we're, you know, first generation or we're one of the only ones, we've tended to have that in our history.

but also because we tend to believe or know a lot of times white people will kind of lump us together. we don't, know, some of us who go to work, we don't want to associate, we want to be friends, we don't want to be associated with that because we want to keep ourselves over here, out of the mess. I'm just curious, because this is the first time I'm hearing this, you know, you guys keeping.

your friendship a secret? Were you thinking any of that at the time? What were your thoughts?

Abby The Attorney (26:15)

We just did it. We didn't even talk about it. It was just the way that we knew instinctively how to interact. ⁓

Erin Braxton (26:18)

Mmm.

Abby The Attorney (26:26)

It was the way that we knew how to interact. think she was even better at it than me because she went to undergrad at the University of Georgia. And so she had more exposure around the kind of people that we were working with. I had less exposure around them. I didn't really know whiteness the way that I know it now. I thought that I did, but what I learned was the kids that I grew, I grew up near Air Force base.

Okay. And so the white people that I grew up around far different from the ones that I was interacting with in this corporate space. So I didn't know white people that with it, I thought that I did. And so coming into work, she knew more about how to navigate those relationships than I did. ⁓ and she did well with that. ⁓ I was the one who was like being drug along, screaming and kicking. And, ⁓

How did I know to trust her though? think is kind of the question. I didn't, I think I just came in trusting everybody and wanting to be friends with everybody. And fortunately for me, she reciprocated that and we're still friends to this day. ⁓ But I did have another experience probably about three years in was when Erica came. I'll use her name because I have talked about her on TikTok and ⁓ she has commented. Now when Erica came.

Erin Braxton (27:31)

Thanks.

To the same age, to the same firm. Okay.

Abby The Attorney (27:47)

The same law firm.

I was appalled, Erin, and this is so embarrassing. came as her full 100 % Erica. Sorry, not your Erica came as her full 100 % black self. it scared me. It insulted me. This girl was introducing everyone to her husband who was a rapper.

Erin Braxton (28:04)

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (28:17)

She was unapologetically like the way that she wore her hair and changed her hairstyles. I went into the friend that I already had office one day and I had a horrifying car ride with my partner that I did work for where he was making me listen to the mixed tape that Erica had given him.

Erin Braxton (28:22)

huh.

Hahaha

Abby The Attorney (28:37)

And I told her, can you believe that we have, we've set this standard for this long that they will not talk to us this way. They will not, Hey girl, us and honey thing, honey child. Here comes this girl ruining everything.

Erin Braxton (28:52)

Wow. I think that was the response though. know, like I... I get it. I get it. I would be different I think in 2025, but catch me in 2002 or whatever. Yeah, I can get it. Okay.

Abby The Attorney (29:12)

Yeah. So years later, I come out of my respectability and I realized that I lost the opportunity to be friends with this unapologetic, beautiful black woman. what made me think about it even was that we kept contact over just socials only. And there was a picture she posted of her and her daughter at Cardi B's concert. And I was like, look at her.

She's always been her full self and she's able to be her full self wherever she is, even with her kids. And I could have been friends with someone like this and not suffered so long of being one person here and one person here and one, you know, like not splitting myself for these people who don't deserve splitting me. If I had chose to embrace the Erica's

Erin Braxton (30:05)

Right, right.

Abby The Attorney (30:09)

of the world. And so I told her, I told her and I made like a long apology for different things that I had said, whether she knew them or not. And she was just so gracious. She was like, literally, if I could go back to the Facebook post, her comment was just something very simple. Like we have to meet people where they are.

Erin Braxton (30:31)

And we had fear. mean, you know, you had your experience at the time. Maybe unapologetic Erica came in there and didn't have certain experiences. So, you know, and it's similar to what I was just saying, you know, that that fear of being. Categorized or put together with people that you think that you're projecting that the the white people are going to see her in a certain way and then perhaps.

think that way about you, but how did they respond to her? And obviously well, right?

Abby The Attorney (31:05)

The response to her in front of her face and behind her back, very different. Of course. The response to her in front of her face was, she's so cool. How fun. She's more interesting than you two other black girls who have been here. The response behind her back was that she was unprofessional.

Erin Braxton (31:21)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (31:28)

and I hate to say I never defended her.

Erin Braxton (31:33)

Mm-hmm.

I've been in situations where, and I can't think of them exactly right now, but I know I've been in the same situation where, you know, I probably didn't defend somebody I should have defended as well. So, Abby, how did you work your way out of this place? Because you said you had to come up with an exit strategy, which a lot of people, I think a lot of black women especially now, are

trying to figure out, you know, we feel like we're stuck ⁓ in these jobs. A lot of black women have been laid off in this country. They don't know their next move. You you worked for law firms. I heard you telling a story about how you just couldn't take it. I know that maybe this isn't when you decided to become an entrepreneur, but at some point you did. ⁓ So.

What was your exit strategy to get out of this place that had you depressed, down, hiding from these people? What did you do?

Abby The Attorney (32:40)

So I want to mention one other thing that helped push me along the way as well. I was being used in that firm to harm other black people, ⁓ harm claimants. So I would get assigned to cases where the claimant was a black person. And in the beginning, I think nothing of it. It's just my work. But

Erin Braxton (32:51)

Hmm

Abby The Attorney (33:06)

When I go into the rooms for the depositions and I'm the only other black person in the room, I understand that person doesn't see me as an enemy, that other black person. ⁓ and I was doing a deposition of this older black lady and the goal was obviously to get her to say something that would get her claim denied.

Erin Braxton (33:28)

Let me just interrupt you really quick. Just for people who aren't familiar with all the terminology, explain what a deposition is.

Abby The Attorney (33:36)

So a deposition is when you take somebody's sworn statement before you go to trial and that sworn statement can be used to either help their claim if they're staying consistent with their own statement and with their medical records, or it can be used against their claim if it is inconsistent with their medical records or inconsistent with statements they've given previously.

So this woman's situation was one that was quite complicated. The issue was not whether she was hurt or not. The issue was which insurer was responsible for the hurt. So I want to get my client off the hook for being responsible for her hurt. So I need her to agree with me.

Erin Braxton (34:25)

So you're working for the.

Abby The Attorney (34:26)

the this deposition that the only reason this woman is agreeing with me, because it's to her detriment to agree with me, I'm the only other black face in the room, because I have a strong Southern accent when I'm down there, and they're purposefully sending me to South Georgia and Middle Georgia for these kinds of claims.

Erin Braxton (34:28)

Okay, gotcha.

Abby The Attorney (34:58)

in the course of the conversation, like in the course of the deposition, I said, I can't keep waffling. got to get out of here.

Erin Braxton (35:09)

You said that to yourself. myself. How long did it take you? How many times did they do that before you picked up on it?

Abby The Attorney (35:18)

It was the most obvious in that occasion, but it definitely happened before that. It was the most obvious then. And I, there was something that happened that made it the most obvious. was something that she said to me, darling, honey. There was something that she said where I was like, ⁓

Erin Braxton (35:23)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. She hates me.

Abby The Attorney (35:42)

No, I can't, I can't do this. So that's one thing I wanted to make sure that I mentioned that it wasn't just coming from one side. It was coming from all sides, all sides were like, you have got, you cannot stay intact and be the person that you claim to be and be here. You can't. So I did things to try and appease myself before I left, like,

I started sitting on citizen review panels. started doing volunteer stuff because remember, like I've earned enough set at this point that I could just take time off and they won't say anything to me. So I was doing all these volunteer things thinking this will satisfy my soul. But you know, with that woman in that deposition, I said, there's no amount of volunteer work I can do to recover for the harm that I'm doing on this other end. So I said,

I want to work in immigration. It's where I wanted to work anyway. So let me start applying for jobs to get out of here. So I found a firm that said I would be able to work in their immigration department. But first, you know, just come in and help with some of our insurance stuff. And then we can figure out how to get you over into immigration. A year into that job, I still had not touched immigration. And so I said I need a ⁓ full, you know, change. need a full

you know, 180, what can I do? I went to this conference that was called Women, ⁓ Women, Women, Something in Law and Business. I don't remember the name of it, but it was in downtown Atlanta. And I got the company to pay for me to go. There was no CLEs attached, but I was like, I want to go to this. I was just doing all kinds of stuff. Okay. So there had a panel that was called alternatives to law. And everyone sitting on that panel was someone who had

Erin Braxton (37:16)

.

Yeah, yeah.

Abby The Attorney (37:29)

had gotten a law degree, but they did not work in a law firm anymore. One of them was a lady who had gone to Europe for several years and gotten expertise in working in human resources and then came back. And at the exact same time I attended this conference, my son had been learning Spanish with the ESL teacher at school. And the ESL teacher said to me, we have come as far as we can go. If you want.

⁓ any further, you know, any more deep learning, then you need to transfer to an immersion school or have some kind of immersion experience. And so I got this idea sitting in the conference, I can leave the country too. I can leave the country and figure out how ⁓ to reset while I'm out. And maybe someone will take me more seriously if I have that ⁓ cultural experience and if I can pick up a language.

So I asked my son in Spanish.

Erin Braxton (38:31)

I love you for that. Listen, my minor's in Spanish. I spent a summer in Spain when college asked me, I speak Spanish? I've been at it for years, but go ahead, go ahead. So I have a...

Abby The Attorney (38:47)

I had a globe on the desk outside my son's room. And so I'm sitting there like looking at jobs online and different countries and just trying to figure some things out. And I asked my son if we moved out of the country or would you want to go? He did not break his stride. He just just just said Mexico and kept walking. And so I was like, okay, Mexico.

Erin Braxton (39:08)

Right?

Abby The Attorney (39:12)

And if you asked him why he would say, cause my friend Esmeralda is from Mexico and she always says that she likes Mexico.

Erin Braxton (39:20)

Did you work there? Did you or you just took off?

Abby The Attorney (39:23)

So I started applying for jobs and I did an interview. I did one interview in Colombia, one in Peru and one in Mexico. And I really wanted the job in Peru because it was like on the shore and looking up by the beach would be so cool. And it was a boarding school. So my son would be able to be in the boarding school too. But the job in Mexico was clearly the one for me because when I got on, back then it was Skype. When I got on Skype.

with Salvador who would become my boss, we just got along like gangbusters. Just, you know, they're allowed to ask questions that you're typically not allowed to ask when you're applying for jobs in the U.S. But because of him being allowed to ask me those questions, like, are you married? Do you have any kids? We were able to have deeper conversations about what I was looking for and why I was trying to come and what would be difficult or easy for me. And he told me flat out,

Like, yes, you can bring your son here and get him in school, but I'm going to tell you, I'm Mexican, but I moved back here from Chicago. It was hard for me to get my kids in public school. So it's going to be, it's going to be difficult for you, but we'll help you however we can. ⁓ we also talked about dating. said where we are, he was over two locations and I had selected the one location and he was like, well, for that location, if you want to date while you're there, you're going to run into people who fetishize you.

And so you need to be careful of that. And if you want me to meet anybody that you're interested in and you think you're serious about, I can do that.

Erin Braxton (40:59)

What's his name again?

Abby The Attorney (41:00)

Salvador!

Erin Braxton (41:03)

Salvador, I just love this story because I feel like it takes a lot of courage to like get up and move out of the country, you know, even if it was just temporary, but in order for you to make happen in your life what you needed to have happen. And I remember like reading when before we talked and what good came from.

All of this, some good obviously came from it, I think. You know what I'm saying? Because you can always connect those dots later. You can't connect them at the time. You don't know why certain things are happening to you. it just took a tremendous amount of courage to just, as a black woman too, to just up and go to Mexico.

Abby The Attorney (41:48)

couldn't see any other way at that moment. couldn't see any other way. was standing at my washer one day and I just, I'm going to cry just thinking about it. I just broke down in tears. I couldn't even stand up straight at the washing machine. said, I can't continue like this. I am dying on the inside. I can't do this.

Erin Braxton (42:09)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

It's amazing. mean, I mean, that's so inspiring. So that's so inspiring. And so you go to Mexico. You leave and you're there for how long?

Abby The Attorney (42:26)

I leave.

We stayed for a year. That

was as long as my ex-husband would agree to ⁓ because we did have joint custody.

Erin Braxton (42:37)

Right, right.

Bye.

Abby The Attorney (42:41)

At the time I knew that I was like propelling forward, but I also felt like such a huge failure that I couldn't stick it out and make it happen. And I couldn't explain well to my parents what I was doing, you know, and they didn't really understand because again, I couldn't really explain to them how I was suffering. We're talking about people who did sit-ins at Wool Ward's and got spit on and

yelled at and my mom, know, the first company that came into her hometown that she tried to get a job with told her, no, even though she graduated at the top of her, her class, no, you, little black, four-eyed black girl. No. How do I explain to these people that I can't cut the mustard?

Erin Braxton (43:35)

Right. I just can't take it because they went through so much worse. They're just like, you have a job. You have you're getting retirement. Yeah. Have benefits. And why would you leave?

Abby The Attorney (43:47)

that.

would, and what they're seeing from the outside is you leave work whenever you feel like it. You take vacations, you have enough money to do what you want to do. So like from the outside, no one would know how I was feeling, how I was really doing. And then because we don't really look at weight loss as a sign of stress, I am five, you know, 10, five, nine. I've been learning about my height for so long.

Erin Braxton (44:16)

Me

too. ⁓

Abby The Attorney (44:17)

There

is no reason I should ever be 130 pounds. So people looking at my weight loss, mean like even at one point I was having my food delivered to me so I could keep in that 900 calories and I would let my nephew eat like half of my plate before I ate it and nobody was like, wait a minute, you're already eating so little. Why are you letting him eat half of your

Erin Braxton (44:42)

Right.

Abby The Attorney (44:45)

Food, nobody was noting the concern in my physical deterioration.

Erin Braxton (44:52)

And you know, this is what has to happen in order for us to elevate as a people though. You know what I'm saying? You have to almost be in these situations and to this point, you know, because a lot of people and I can just tell by listening to the comments, by hearing what people say about me or to me or whatever that they expect us to stay stuck in these situations and just like struggle through it.

kill ourselves literally, you know, and you know, enough is enough. You know, I struggle with ⁓ chest pains. I struggle with anxiety. You say you struggle with depression and I can tell you from being away from toxic people, clients who paid me quite well. Of course, I miss the money, but I don't miss it. You know what I'm saying? Because I just feel so much better, but we have to

I feel like this is what we have to do, maybe our generation is to get ourselves to the point where we elevate up out of a situation. yeah, I completely get it. My dad doesn't understand. my God, what are you going to do? I don't know what you're doing. Why would you, you know, just want kind of not in a. Is like they mean to, but it's just like they would keep us, they would keep us back.

to prevent, know, cause they feel like it's the safest option, you know? And I just, that's what I just love about your story because that, mean, it just took a lot of courage to leave the country. I'm sorry, you know, with a child and all of the things. So yeah, that's amazing.

Abby The Attorney (46:39)

I did panic on the plane though.

Erin Braxton (46:44)

course you did. And even what you were saying before you got to this point, before you got to the second firm, right? And you were putting yourself on, not boards, but reviews and different things like that. That's all part of the process. mean, that's like networking, that's getting yourself out there. I don't know if anything came from that, but I mean, all that sounds promising. And sometimes we just have to be so uncomfortable.

that we have to make the decision to do something about it. And you just had to be that uncomfortable. And maybe it was tenable for somebody else, ⁓ not you, but you had to get to that point so you could get yourself to where you needed to be. So you go to Mexico for a year and then what?

Abby The Attorney (47:36)

So I knew that I wanted to do immigration. So I started applying for jobs, for law firms, for nonprofit positions. Nothing was coming immediately. And then I reached out to someone that I graduated with, Latrice, she's also on TikTok, talking to Latrice. ⁓

who was doing immigration at the time. And she said, well, I'm getting ready to go to the border. There is this project called Cara Pro Bono project where you can volunteer with people who are just arriving in the United States. and they need volunteers. And I said, Hmm, I can do that. So I went with her for a week and then I stayed after she left. and that's where I really got to learn.

my not so happy Spanish words, because my Spanish that I learned when I was in Mexico was, you know, going out to eat and buying fruits and vegetables. I didn't need to learn words like threat and danger and harm and rape and cut. so I learned all of my horrific asylum related words there. And after that, I

had a language on my resume and I had some experience on my resume where people finally started taking me seriously. And I got my first job working in immigration. Working in immigration means that you're going to be exposed to people who are automatically a little bit different than where the practice area I was in before. But I still did have some law firm structure issues and some racial and sexual sexism issues that just showed up.

differently. Like they're still present, but they just showed up in a different way. And so I don't want to say they weren't as harsh, but compared to what happened previously,

It wasn't... ⁓

It wasn't enough that I was like, gotta leave the country again. But it was enough that I was like, I just simply can't work for other people.

Erin Braxton (49:50)

Right.

And I got that 1000 % because I don't work for other people either. So I had three jobs and I was out. Yeah. So what you? You had three? No, no, no. You worked in Mexico.

Abby The Attorney (50:10)

Yeah, I worked while I was down there, but I was just teaching English down there. So I'm totally different. ⁓ but when I came back, I came back to a different area. So moving areas also changed a lot for me. Georgia is just different. so I worked for three different immigration firms before I ended up working for myself. And the final thing that actually pushed me completely out to work for myself.

was when my dad passed away. I did go back to work, but I did not go back to work volunteering for extra work in the same way. didn't go back to work doing extra hours and extra assignments in the same way.

I can't be 100 % sure whether this was racial or not, but there was an expectation that I was going to continue allowing people to give me extra work and not have the time off that anybody would need. Yeah. You know, um, this one I can't say too much about because I finally got the balls to sue somebody. And so I can't talk about too much. Um, there was a settlement, um, but I can't talk about too much of the details of this, but it had been.

I have been mistreated so much over my career and knowing that I'm a good employee and that I get my work done, that I finally said I have had it. You're not going to take advantage of me. I know that I'm a hardworking employee. I'm finally filing a lawsuit against somebody. And so I did. And then after that, I was like, I'm just going to work for myself now.

Erin Braxton (51:41)

Yeah.

So when you do that, have to go. Like you're not working for them as when you file lawsuits. I mean, this has come up on the podcast as well. ⁓ and you know, obviously you're an attorney and other people don't know when or when they should or shouldn't file a lawsuit, but once you're, once you're in it, you're not working there anymore. Right.

Abby The Attorney (52:13)

mean, you could, you could file a lawsuit and still work at a place. In my case, I was not. but you could, you could do that, you know? And then if they try to do anything to you because you filed this lawsuit, then you might be able to add a retaliation claim.

Erin Braxton (52:18)

Okay.

Right, right. my God, I love it. So you're on your own now and that's going well. I'm sure you still, well, I don't know. Well, from listening to you, I know you still deal with things, but working for people is just a whole other animal. You still have to interact with other attorneys, ⁓ judges, I'm sure, just all the things.

agencies. I've listened to you. I've listened to a lot of your videos. ⁓ and you've been out. Yeah. So I just.

Abby The Attorney (53:05)

lot of the stories that I tell on TikTok are things that happened years ago. It's just that I just started using my TikTok a year ago and I've found it like very therapeutic. Yes. When I would talk about situations that occurred, ⁓ it's my little bit of vindication because from those experiences and the people who harm me and those experiences, I don't know what happened to their life afterwards.

Erin Braxton (53:09)

Yeah.

Abby The Attorney (53:35)

But I know what happened to my life afterwards. know the detriment that it has caused to me and I feel good to finally have the verbiage to explain and feel confident in myself that this was wrong.

It was wrong when it happened. It's wrong today. And it's my story to talk about whenever I feel like it.

Erin Braxton (54:03)

Yeah, I think I think that's the case for a lot of us, you know ⁓ my whole Point of this podcast. It's very therapeutic and a lot of times when I'm talking like when you just Were talking about how you were used You know when you were working for that firm to be the only black woman in that room during those dispositions depositions and I

I've had similar situations when they needed a black face, you know, and I worked in advertising for many years. So, you know, ⁓ to show they had people in the agency to that looked like them or the client or whatever. And I think using social media in this way, I think it's really healing. You know, I think about

Shoot, I just think about even in dating and the next the next person I date, I feel like I've learned a lot that I just wish I would have had once upon a time and been uplifted and encouraged by women. You know, where we share things and stories where once upon a time you would be embarrassed to talk about because you thought you were the only one. And now people are talking and they're helping each other. And, you know, social media has got its

obvious downsides, but yeah, it's very therapeutic and to be able to use the platform to ⁓ just tell your story is helping another woman, another black woman, you know, I agree with you completely. ⁓ I love listening to your stories, you know, so.

Abby The Attorney (55:49)

And every once in a while I will get a comment from one of my law school professors because I have a few of them on my Facebook page or I'll get a comment from somebody that I worked with years ago and they're reflecting on their own behavior. And I appreciate that. It's not going to help me, but I appreciate it if I can say,

You guys told me when I was in law school over and over again that I have to have thick skin because I am black. And I, that was wrong. You shouldn't have said that. You should have never, you should have been changing the world on the other side. And I don't appreciate that, that that's how you sent me out into the world to be used and abused. And if one professor says, you're right, we shouldn't have, have taught that. Thank you.

Erin Braxton (56:41)

Yeah. Well, because you said, you know, I felt like a failure, like I did too, you know, because when you do everything like they tell you to do, you know, you go to school, you get the degrees, you get the job. Like you said, you came into that first firm thinking this is going to be the last place you work, you know, and you think you've you've done.

all the things, all the things to get yourself to where you are and then you're met with opposition after opposition and all of the things. It's like the real world just smacks you in the face and we just come out so idealistic. You said, I want to be friends with everybody and da da da. And I thought I was, and I look back even now and I'm like, you know, so.

I resonate a lot with what you said and I think, I mean, what you're sharing even here today is just so, you're so passionate about it. So I hope you feel good about that and I hope you continue to share, know, and do your TikTok channel because I benefit from it. I was like, yeah, I want this girl on the show.

Abby The Attorney (57:57)

I benefit from it. I spent that year that I was in Mexico crying so much, know, just recovering so much. And I feel like every time I make a video that does okay, like people resonate, under express understanding, like I'm recapturing a piece of me.

Erin Braxton (58:20)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (58:22)

because I was a nicer person once upon a time.

Erin Braxton (58:29)

Yeah, and to your point about that, that's part of the challenge is like getting through this life to me without becoming bitter, without becoming angry, because that's not who you are at your core. The life just will, it will toughen you up. And yeah, we are taught to be, ⁓

Abby The Attorney (58:45)

You know?

Erin Braxton (58:54)

to kind of walk through with tougher skin. mean, I think naturally we have tougher skin because we walk in a, we walk this world in a way that they cannot just, they cannot understand. But you know, we are not emotionless robots. you know, we have emotions, we have feelings and it's hard and it's painful. And I just want to say thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your stories with us today. It has been.

Really, really, really, really good. So ⁓ I just wanna let everybody know where they can find you, ⁓ what channels you want them to say hi to you or whatever.

Abby The Attorney (59:38)

You

can find me everywhere. I'm at abbywinners80 on Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. So you can find me anywhere that you choose to enjoy social media.

Erin Braxton (59:55)

Well thank you Abby, this has been so good. I'm so glad I got you on here, and I'm so glad that anybody who doesn't already know you, because your following is bigger than mine, ⁓ anybody who doesn't already know you will get to be introduced to you and ⁓ I hope they go find you and interact with you on those channels. ⁓

Abby The Attorney (1:00:16)

Thank you for the invitation. appreciate getting lots of stuff off my chest. Every time somebody asks me a question, I feel like it will bring up new things that I've suppressed over the years. And I need to get it all out.

Erin Braxton (1:00:21)

Yeah.

Yeah, mean, and just real quick, do you think that it's just going to be on TikTok? Because it sounds like there's something else in you, like another another ⁓ calling, you know, with this, because it's so healing for you as well. I'm just curious.

Abby The Attorney (1:00:51)

I know. We'll see where the wind takes me, Erin. Yeah. I started like ⁓ six years ago thinking that I would write a book.

but it became so wieldy that I was like, can't really, I can't really capture this because it's not just everything that was happening to me at work was also overlaying various deconstructions that I was going through in other ways. So we talked about deconstructing from respectability politics. I also deconstructed a lot from the religion that I grew up in, which a lot of people from my hometown would call a cult.

⁓ I was also divorced. I got married due to pressure from church and got divorced right before I started working at that particular law firm. So I just had a lot of different layers of things that were happening at the same time. like trying to get it all down into text was just really wieldy. couldn't, I couldn't do it.

⁓ at that time. So I don't know if I'll ever return to it.

Erin Braxton (1:02:08)

You might. find that, because I'm a very creative person and I've learned that, and I'll probably talk more about this later, I've learned that tapping into that creativity really is therapeutic for me. Like I have to do that. It helps me with my anxiety. It helps me with my worry, all of the things. And sometimes like when you're in the thick of it and it's so much, you can't

probably sit there calmly and like you said just put it you know pen to paper and and get your thoughts organized but one day I mean you might you might figure out the way to do it it'll come to you when it's time for you to do it which sounds like it might happen you just gotta you gotta give it some time to manifest you the way it needs to

Abby The Attorney (1:03:00)

Well, thank you.

Erin Braxton (1:03:02)

Thank you everyone for joining us and we will see you in the next one.