Erin Braxton (00:00)

When I say friendships in the workplace, your first thought

Abby The Attorney (00:03)

I would say these white women are not your friends. Do not invite them to your home. Do not invite them to your church. Just let it lie where it is.

Tracie Walker (00:11)

just let it happen organically, but also just err on the side of caution. Keep in mind that everything is superficial.

Abby The Attorney (00:18)

I thought I made a genuine connection with someone. We shared a lot of personal information with each other and me coming in and just being recently divorced. She used that as an opportunity to go and tell my superiors that I was having baby debt issues.

Tracie Walker (00:33)

One thing that I had learned early on, I think it was just because I had attended a predominantly white private school, I already knew that white women are taught, a lot of them are taught that every woman's competition, especially women of color and black women.

Abby The Attorney (00:47)

If you can't be self-reflective, then we can't be friends.

Erin Braxton (00:58)

Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee No Cream podcast. My name is Erin Braxton and I am the host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, we are unapologetically dedicated to black women and we share what I like to call coffee no cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in life and business just because we are black. And today I'm super excited because I've brought back Thinking Out Loud as she's known on TikTok and Abby the attorney and

We're just gonna continue the conversations that we had when they were individually on Coffee No Cream to talk about friendships in the workplace and what it means to have friendships in the workplace. Is it safe to have friendships in the workplace? How do you deal with certain situations? Should you engage as a black woman? We know that we are scrutinized more strongly. We are studied as thinking out loud Tracy says and

We want to make sure that we are not making ourselves even a bigger target in these corporate environments. So we are going to talk about that. All three of us got together, had a great conversation. But before we get to that, I'm gonna ask you guys to please like, please share, please subscribe. Also, we have a Facebook community and we want to continue the conversation over there. It's a safe space. These comments can be really... ⁓

kind of tricky, people are getting in there, we've got trolls and things like that where we just don't feel comfortable talking about certain things. So join us over in our Facebook community, the link is below. And with that said, I will see you in the episode. So welcome you guys, I'm so excited to have you.

Abby The Attorney (02:40)

Excited to be here and meet the legendary Thinking Out Loud.

Tracie Walker (02:45)

Well, I'm happy to be here too and meet Abby the attorney.

Erin Braxton (02:51)

Okay guys, so today I wanted to bring back Abby the attorney and Thinking Out Loud to talk about friendships in the workplace when it comes to black women. Now, we touched on these things a little bit in each of the episodes with these women. Abby talked about one of her friendships when she was at the law firm that she always talks about on TikTok and how when she did find a friend in corporate, they kept that friendship secret.

And Tracy had some amazing, amazing stories about her time in law firms as well. So I just want to start by kicking off the question as if we were talking to our younger selves, if we were talking to young black women who are entering a corporate environment today. What, when I say friendships in the workplace, immediately,

What would you tell your younger self or a younger black woman who is entering like your first thought that comes top of your mind? Let's let's start with Abby.

Abby The Attorney (03:54)

I hate that my first thought is negative, but I was pretty naive and I thought that I was gonna make friends and this is gonna be the last place that I ever work. So if I was talking to younger me, I would say these white women are not your friends. So just stop trying. Do not invite them to your home. Do not invite them to your church. Just let it lie where it is.

Erin Braxton (04:17)

Okay, Tracy.

Tracie Walker (04:18)

Yeah, I would say let it happen or well, as far as if we're talking, you specifically about black women, you know, in general, just let it happen organically, but also just err on the side of caution and keep in mind that everything is superficial just because specifically with white women, even if they are being kind, they're welcoming, they're friendly, you don't really have any issues with them. I don't think you can fully trust them 100 percent in the workplace.

Erin Braxton (04:46)

Okay, Abby, just said, you said, you know, you feel some kind of way. Do you have a story about white women towards you who tried to be your friend or you have friendships in the past? Because I too would say to be cautious. I don't think I ever really shared my story about white friends in the workplace, but I too have one and I thought I had a good friendship in one, but hindsight is 20-20 as you know.

And when I look back at it, I just think it was bullshit. You know what I'm saying? Because I'm not friends with that person anymore. ⁓ She was very dialed into what was going on, the inner workings of the advertising agency that I worked at, and ⁓ was low key shady. Not to mention she ended up marrying a black man. But that's like a whole other story. ⁓ Of course she is.

Tracie Walker (05:39)

topic.

Abby The Attorney (05:40)

Of course she did. yeah, I've had a few times where I thought I made a genuine connection with someone and it turns out that they were just sizing me up. And the overarching thing that I didn't realize in that workplace is that we were all in a competition. In my opinion, there was so much work to be done.

And there were so many partners that I didn't need to be in a competition with anybody. I thought we could all eat and we all get paid. And their perspective on that was completely different. ⁓ And I also, you know, I had that issue in law school too. I did not look at going to law school as a competition where some people feel like I need to be in the top 10%, 20%, whatever. I came in, you I was already an older student. I just said, I'll, I'll,

work at a place where it's okay for me to be at whatever my level of education and achievement is because I don't have, I started law school with a three year old. I don't have 24 hours in the day to just read books all the time. I have to do this at my own pace. I'm not competing with anyone but myself. ⁓ And so when I went into the law firm that hired me because I had prior work experience and because

I knew office etiquette that new people coming into the office did not know because they never worked before law school. I felt like I could embrace this person, who I was. I'm not in competition with other people. ⁓ And I don't know why I thought that I could carry that world with me. So what happened is in these relationships where I thought I'd made a friend with someone, and I'm specifically talking about white women in this.

in this instance, it backfired on me each time until I realized it's not the individual. It is white women. is white culture that's causing this to happen. One that I told ⁓ in more detail on TikTok was the white woman who I took over files for her while she was out of the country on vacation. And in that process, we shared a lot of personal information with each other about why she was

going on this trip and me coming in and just being recently divorced. And she used that as an opportunity to go and tell my superiors that I was having baby debt issues because I needed to find childcare for a conference that we were all going into. And specifically used that term. When I told the story, there were a bunch of white women in the comments who were like, how do you know that's what she said? Maybe he said it by himself because I was there. Because I was there and I know that's what.

she said to him and then he repeated that thing in front of a group of everyone working in my department. And so that was the end of that. Like we're not friends anymore. I know I keep you at arm's length. But then she went on to a baby shower or wedding shower. I don't remember which one it was and told everyone there that she didn't think that was going to last at the firm. And

I went and confronted her about that and said, there something that I did wrong? I didn't confront her in a way to, I'm just trying to make an issue with you. I was trying to uncover if there was something that I needed to do differently. Because there was something that happened during the two weeks that I was managing your cases that made you feel like I wouldn't make it here. Because if there was, I want to know about that and know about how I can fix that. And she just flat out denied saying it when I, multiple people had come back and told me that she said it. So.

Erin Braxton (09:14)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (09:16)

It was things like that. And then like there were other smaller things. I made friends with somebody in a different department and we would go out together because we were single gals, you know? And then she said to me one day, completely out of the blue and unprovoked, I think that you would get more dates if you straightened your hair.

Erin Braxton (09:34)

Whoa. I had a girl tell me that. I had a girl tell me that.

It wasn't in the workplace, she's actually Tunisian French. So she's technically black, but you know, told me that when I started going natural, she's like, this must be something you can do. Can you straighten blow it out? You know, I just looked at her like, really? Yeah, I had a situation when I at my very first job and I had just gotten promoted. So we work, work, work, work, work to get promoted. And this, she was older at the time. mean,

She's in her 40s, so I was like 23 or something like that. It was right after my mother died. And she pulled me, was my direct report supervisor, but she was over her. So ⁓ she asked me to go to lunch, went to lunch with her. Proceeded to start telling me all about her relationship. ⁓ Had a younger boyfriend. She was trying to figure out if he was legit interested in her because he was younger and she was older. Told me all this business.

And I'm just like, you know, I'm 23. I don't know what to do with this. I don't know how to process it, you know? But she, you know, was very, you know, forthcoming about all of her information. And then I think she felt embarrassed about it later because we were working on the Pizza Hut account. And one of the younger Pizza Hut clients called me. We made friends. And she called me to come go to a football game.

or it was a basketball, I cannot even remember, okay? So I show up at this game on the weekend in box seats with this younger client and this older lady who had told me all about her relationship with her younger chef boyfriend was there. I think she was shocked that I was there. I didn't have anybody to ask. It wasn't like we were prohibited to go. I was just doing client service work. And very shortly after that, I was fired. I mean, I was just promoted and then I was fired.

So that whole environment that I worked in at the ad agency was quite toxic. This was the first ad agency, not the last ad agency, but you know, again, I was in Texas. You know what I was dealing with down there in the late nineties, early two thousands. So, so Tracy, I just didn't know if you wanted to add something to that.

Tracie Walker (11:57)

Well, I was thinking about my very first and there were there was one attorney and one thing that I had learned early on and I think it was just because I had attended a predominantly white private school. I already knew that white women are taught. A lot of them are taught that every woman's competition, especially women of color and black women. So.

there's already this, you know, I would see it just growing up in school with them, how they would treat each other and then how they would treat me. And that made me day one, just kind of side eye because it was like, you already knew, okay, I have to be very careful how I step around them because nasty nice is how a lot of them operate. And when I stepped into the workplace, there was this attorney that had been hired and she was like overly friendly. And so that's a red flag right there because one of the things that, you know, this job,

Attorneys did not co-mingle with support staff. They just didn't. And you would get looked at funny if you did. But she was just very like, she wanted to go out to lunch one day. And I thought, well, this isn't a huge deal because she's probably just trying to get to know the support staff. Cause that was something, it wasn't uncommon for new newly hired attorneys to do that, just to try to talk to paralegals and admins and everything. But as soon as we went out to lunch, she starts bad mouthing one of the other female attorneys who's white. And she immediately started.

You know, have you noticed that someone so thinks she's a know-it-all and a telltale sign is always when they start with this. Have you noticed or don't you think if you are working with a white woman and they start with that phrase, they're getting ready to try to use you as a scapegoat because they're not going to speak up. It's something that's bothering them. And those are telltale phrases. I've heard them over and over again and I already know and I'll just kind of. You know, do this, but I saw how she she tried to talk about this attorney and I was just kind of, you know, and.

I said, well, I need to get back. I've got some things to do. Like I cut the lunch as short as I could because I thought this girl's trouble. And it was so funny because one of my friends, we met in paralegal school and she'd already been at this particular job event. And we saw her coming back and I introduced them just being polite. And I could immediately tell, and of course this person, she's black that I went to paralegal school with and she was looking at her up and down like, and I thought, oh, she picks up on the energy. And I got back to my desk and she called me.

And she said, Hey, you really need to watch your background her. Cause she said something about her. could tell is not not right. And sure enough it was. I picked up on the energy, but, long story short, she ended up becoming pregnant and she had started to make connections with some other female attorneys at the office. And so now she has, you know, she's expecting a baby, this attorney that she bad mouth all the time, who I don't think was fully aware of, you know, the back stabbing behavior, but

she was offering, you you can borrow my maternity clothes. I've got some tips for you. Now all of a sudden she's great. And they're Betty. And so that's why I'm just always because I've seen that over and over again.

Erin Braxton (14:54)

It's so funny that you say this, okay, because I'm going to say this, I don't care who watches it, because you know I'm so far removed from these people, but the girl that I was friends with, and if she watches it, you know, whatever. So the girl that I was friends with, she could not stand this one woman who was in the agency. She could not stand this one woman because this woman

was supposedly having an affair with one of the top three guys, okay? She was having an affair. She just couldn't stand it. She just didn't, you know, I don't deal with women like this is disgusting until that woman took an interest in her and they became friends. And then all of a sudden it was like, no, they weren't sleeping together. They weren't, you know, and of course now they're married and had a kid and all this whole.

life or whatever. He was still married, I think, to somebody else. then, you know, but it was she was bad-mouthed and that woman to the core until they became friends, you know, you know, whatever. But I wanted to ask you, Tracy, because you mentioned that you learned early how white women treat each other. And this is so interesting because I went to a primarily white school. ⁓ guess maybe I wasn't paying attention because I'm more like Abby was.

I'm more like Abby was like I went in like I'm gonna be friends with everybody. Everybody's cool I've always gotten along with everybody, but I feel like once we got into the corporate world things totally changed You know what I'm saying? Because in college I kind of was with black people I didn't really I had my activities where you know, I was in you know I don't know homecoming Steering Committee and this other recruitment organization, but you know, I joined my sorority. I did my thing and I was with

Primarily black people and I I guess I wasn't really paying attention to white people like that But I don't think I picked up on that that I wasn't it seems like you picked up on all this stuff So early like your parents told you like I didn't have that because my parents were not corporate people So I feel like I just didn't get it, you

Tracie Walker (17:07)

Yeah, well, you know, my parents, weren't corporate people either. But I think it was just, you know, they're they're boomers. So they grew up during, you know, they definitely had got a taste of Jim Crow. But I think just knowing when they placed us in that school, they tried to prepare my brothers and I as much as possible to not go in there expecting to be liked and accepted and be buddy buddy. You know, their focus was just go get your education, be done with it, you know, on on a surface level when there's events and things like that, we would. ⁓

you know hang out and those type of things but I just always think that face value because there was just a lot of that going on and also to you know if there was some kind of activity and I ended up going over to somebody's house after school because my mom was a teacher there she worked at the school but so things you know we were kind of a mess intermeshed in that way but just it made me observant because you watch how they talk because.

They will say things around you as if they don't think that you understand what's being said. And so I just, you the mothers were very much like, you know, well, that's where it came from. They would talk to their daughters in a way to let them know every woman's competition, especially, you know, women of color and black women like you've and that's that's how they operate. They there's no there's no in between. If they meet you in the workplace and they're trying to be friendly or talk to you, you can't expect them to.

That's the thing. just I'd never expect them to be my friends and you know I ended up having like a small circle of white female friends But they were the exception of course, but that was one thing I saw at school It was just the constant tattling backbiting all of those things But then you know just as quick as the script would flip somebody would be mad at each other Monday on Tuesday They're buddy buddy, and I saw that dynamic in the workplace. They would trash each other

They would go to, you know, I saw female attorneys, you know, going to another male attorney. don't ask her to work on that. Because last time I worked on a case with her, she messed up on that discovery and she kept stuttering during the deposition. But then to her face, it's, ⁓ you know, if you if you have time, you can help me on that case, you know, but there was a lot of that going on behind the scenes. And then they would be going out to lunch, going out to drinks, having drinks. And it was the same thing with the support staff, too.

you know, it was same kind of conversation, but that's how a lot of them are raised. And it comes from, it starts with their moms. They've been taught that, you know, women are not ⁓ your friend. It's everybody is, you know, you have to get something out of somebody. That was what I gathered. So anytime a white woman was nice to me at work, I was always like, what do you want? You know, I'm thinking in the back of my mind, there's something there. You're not just being friendly for the sake of being friendly. And it never failed. It was always just, let me cozy up to this paralegal because

she has a good reputation at the firm among the attorneys. But it was never just truly like, respect you and I respect what you do. It's, I want to stay in your good graces until it doesn't benefit me to do so.

Erin Braxton (20:00)

Yeah, I had one actually tell me I was behind. I was behind my colleagues, my peers in the agency. ⁓ And I think a lot of it could have been jealousy because I worked in a smaller subsidiary, so I got to do different sorts of things. know, I got to...

be the one presenting in front of the chief marketing officer in the client's office or whatever. But yeah, I was behind because I hadn't done one little small thing of the job that, you know. So they would say a little low-key sideways stuff like that, you know, to me. So. ⁓

Tracie Walker (20:41)

That's something you have to watch out for the gas lighting. yeah.

Erin Braxton (20:45)

There

were a lot of digs, a lot of digs. So needless to say, I don't know if you two are, I'm not really friendly with anybody I used to work with. I mean, a couple, you know, because there's some lovely white women. I mean, let's be honest. I mean, there are, I can't sit here and say that's not the case. And I have white friends today, but primarily my friends are women of color. I don't know if that's not intentional. ⁓

Maybe it's just, it's something that just happened naturally.

Abby The Attorney (21:19)

I'm not friends with any of them. Even the one that I thought had the most potential to be honest about what was going on there. Just before I left, she said something that let me know she hasn't worked on her internalized racism enough for us to have a real friendship. So I was interviewing to work at different places. This environment is one where it's fine for you to openly

be interviewing for where I was. And there was one partner that I interviewed with at another firm who is one of the only black partners in that field. And when ⁓ this person learned that I interviewed with him, she said, no, you can't work for him. He's horrible boss. And I asked her, can you tell me why you said that? And she just kept going on about how horrible he is and everybody who works for him hates him. And I said, look,

If you asked me how horrible is Kim or Rodney or anyone else that I worked with, I would be able to give you specific examples of the reasons why I don't think that you would want to work for them. And then you make your choice based on the examples I give you. But you're just telling me like in general that this person is not a good boss and it doesn't sound like you have anything to base it on. The only thing I know about this man is that he's the only black partner who's prominent in this field. So if you don't give me something, I have no conclusion.

to draw except that he's black and that people complain about him having the same standards as anybody else because he's black. And that was the end of that. There was no further conversation. She never came up with a, well, let me go back and ask so and so who told me nothing. And so I left that firm with no white women friends, even though I'd been there for five years. And then after I left, I found out that one of the women who had gone to work on the other side, so we were on the defense side.

and she went to work on the claimant side. They have a chat on the claimant side where every once in a while somebody will ask, have you heard of this attorney? Have you heard of that attorney? And so somebody sent one asking if they'd heard of me and she responded and said, well, she's absolutely horrible. She's horrible to have as an opposing counsel. She's way too aggressive. She said these really nasty things about me. And then when I saw her at a conference the next year, because I was still,

went to a different firm, but I was still in that field for another year. I was walking towards her and I was absolutely going to ask her why she said that and she just tuck tail and ran.

Erin Braxton (23:51)

Of she did. Of course. Because that's what they do.

Tracie Walker (23:54)

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (23:55)

So, but they also stick together. So the one who told me that she said that and showed me what she said, I said, can you send me the whole thread? Like what was the substance of the entire conversation that she responded that way and who responded to it? Then she was like, I don't really want to anything to do with it. Right. So, so no. But the one that I told you about that

Erin Braxton (24:12)

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Abby The Attorney (24:18)

We were secret friends, the one black woman. We remained friends and she works for herself. Now, if we still live in the same state, I'm sure we would hang out. And then the one black woman who I should have been friends with, but I was not friends with her while we were there together, Erica. ⁓ She's come to DC like twice ⁓ since I wrote that long post about her in 2019 or whenever it was. And we've hung out both times that she's come up here. She's... ⁓

just incredibly forgiving. And I love her for that. I love her for knowing that as black women, we do different things to survive in these workplaces. And I love her for being forgiving of who I was at that time, because I never defended her. never defend, even though I knew what it felt like to being talked about a certain way and discriminated against, I never defended things that came up for her because at that point in my mind, I was like,

Why can't she just do better? know? ⁓ So I appreciate that.

Erin Braxton (25:22)

When you told that story, I don't know what year this was, but I, ⁓ I understand it as the years go on. You know what I'm saying? So like back in the early 2000s, ⁓ the late nineties, early 2000s, we're in a different place now, you know, and I think at that time we were still very much in the time where we were just excited to be there. You know, I was, you know, my parents were very proud of me. I did everything I was supposed to do. I went to college.

I got the internships, I got the job. And not really knowing how to act, we knew that white people didn't really understand or accept our culture fully, even though there are culture vultures, all the things, right? And I was giving presentations back in the day about the urban community, looking at Katie Couric.

say, you know, slang words trying to explain how, you know, the African American culture, urban culture is our culture, you know, so that's where we're at. I think now we're in a very different place. don't think then. So I understand, like, yes, it's so great that you've, you know, evolved as we all have and you see, you know, what you did or where you could have gone better.

I think a lot of people, whether they, cause you know, I put that clip on TikTok and that that clip kind of blew up and most of us can, can see ourselves in you in that, in that way. Like I could, you know, especially back at that time. I mean, like you said, we're, we're, we're trying to be taken seriously, not be stereotyped, you know, ⁓ not be put in the same category. We want.

we want to elevate ourselves up out of a certain way of thinking. So I completely understood that. And if it were me, I'm not sure because I'm not there, because there was never any other black women around, to be quite honest. depending on the time, we were just not there. we're, especially once you get to a certain age, you're just like, you know what? So.

I had a woman I was friends with. were friendly. And this is when, you know, we were all on Facebook all the time. Martin Luther King Day came up. Martin Luther King Day came around. And, you know, somebody wrote something and there were all these comments underneath. And she went into... I mean, it was silly, but we don't talk anymore. She unfriended me. We were friendly at the agency. But I guess she called him a cheater.

He cheated on his wife. was this and that. I was just like, you know, my, you know, and then she started talking about her parents. You know, my dad would never, girl, you don't know what your dad does. Like, how do you know? What are you talking about? Like, you know, I know my dad would never cheat. And I was trying to explain to her, instead of looking at, you know, all of the accomplishments and achievements and the importance of Martin Luther King Jr. to us, she chose to focus on the fact that he was a cheater.

Tracie Walker (28:22)

Bye.

Erin Braxton (28:40)

And you know, that was the end of us, even a Facebook friendship over, you know? So a lot of times, just like now, you're getting the real them. You're seeing what they really, really mean. So she just, you know, blocked me on completely.

Abby The Attorney (28:55)

Right, right. Now there are two other smaller things that happen while I was there that I think, you know, people listening might just just be aware of these things happening and maybe decide how you want to handle it beforehand. The same lady that I was talking to earlier when we were both sharing different transitions that we were going through, one of her transitions was that she could no longer afford her nanny. And so I said to her, ⁓ well, I use this this place that was very similar to Boys and Girls Club, but

I use them after school, they're not that far away from the office, and they pick up from the elementary school and take the children to the after school program, and it's very financially advantageous. Anyway, we went and took a look at the program and came back and was like, I would never put my kids there. And I was like, why? ⁓ I think I want my kids to have different programming. And I was like, ⁓ is it because they're all black?

Erin Braxton (29:53)

Why did you recommend an all-black place?

Tracie Walker (29:55)

You

Abby The Attorney (29:56)

In my mind, know, she had so there's a few things that I didn't share about our conversation because I don't want to get into that issue on TikTok. But she's Jewish and she had gone out of her way to talk about how we needed to band together because we're the minorities in the workplace. And there had even been an occasion where we as a group were together and they asked her to say the prayer. And I was like, no.

You can't ask her to do that. That's not appropriate. I'll do the prayer. You know, like, so we'd had those things happen prior to the baby daddy incident. And so because she insisted that we were minorities in the workplace, I was like, okay, I'll go with it. Minorities in the workplace.

Erin Braxton (30:34)

Mm-hmm, okay.

Tracie Walker (30:45)

Right.

Abby The Attorney (30:49)

⁓ You can't afford your nanny anymore because of different changes that are going on. So here's something that maybe you can't afford.

Erin Braxton (30:56)

I have always considered Jewish people to be white, at least the Jewish people I was raised with. We had a lot of Jewish people in the community in which I was raised. And I feel a lot of them were just as racist as ⁓ anybody else. There was a girl in my, I went to school with her from first grade through 12th grade.

Tracie Walker (31:02)

because I grew up

Erin Braxton (31:25)

I believe her mother, I believe this now, I don't know, I believe this now. Her mother probably went up to that school and requested me not to be in her class. I was never in that girl's class. It's strange. How are we in school, first, second, through sixth grade? We've never been in the same class. There's only like two classes per grade or maybe three. But also because I would say her name and she would never, she just wouldn't speak to me. I could be like, hi, you know, not gonna say her name.

wouldn't say anything to me until I became cool with her, you know, popular friends when I was six in the sixth grade and then she finally spoke to me. I could say her name. Hello. I could speak to her wouldn't respond. But anyway, go on ⁓ Abby.

Abby The Attorney (32:13)

So back then I was like heavily involved in my church, which is a 180 from where I am now. But our church annually put on a college fair. And so I gave the information to everyone at work for this free college fair where we're having all these different workshops to help children learn how to talk to recruiters. And we have representatives from like 75 different schools that were coming. Black church. Black church. The advertisement on the front of the

The flyer was a black student, you know, as in all the different college symbols. so multiple people said to me, it okay for white people to come? And I said, why is it that when you guys give me things, you want me to buy things from your children? You want me to be a part of your 5K whatever?

And they always have white people on them. Why do I have to assume that I'm to be part of this? But when I give you one thing for my church, it doesn't have a white person on it. And so you're not sure if you're invited.

Erin Braxton (33:24)

Well, yeah, I mean, ⁓ that's an unknown ⁓ feeling for them, right? This is why they're so bothered now, you know? ⁓ But what do they say? They never do.

Abby The Attorney (33:37)

I didn't mean it like that.

And I said, well, I'll be completely honest with you. By the time that I left that firm, I had lost a lot of my filter. So I'm like, I'll be completely honest with you. If this was just for HBCUs, I wouldn't invite you.

Erin Braxton (33:51)

Why would I give you something to something that wasn't available for you to come to?

Abby The Attorney (33:56)

So ⁓ that was my smaller story. And I just want people to, if you have an opportunity to know that that kind of thing happened, you can decide how you want to conduct yourself beforehand, as opposed to me just going in blind. And that's one of the reasons why I do regret not going to Howard. So I went to an HBCU undergrad. And then for law school, I was thinking about going to Howard, but I had this fear of doing a double HBCU.

And when I spoke to the representative from Howard, they used to have this forum, I don't know if they have it anymore, where you could go and speak to representatives from different law schools that was called the LSAC or something like that. And so I spoke to the rep from Howard and I asked him, what would be the benefit of me coming to Howard when I've already had a really good HBCU experience? And he said, no other ⁓ college is going to be able to teach you how to operate around white corporate America.

only Howard. And I thought, I thought, whatever, I've been around white people my whole life. He doesn't know what he's talking about, but I didn't realize until I started working and then I couldn't put it really into words until I got on TikTok that the white people I grew up around were completely different. Like Air Force based white people, completely different from corporate white people. The white people I grew up around have been exposed to other foods, cultures and languages.

That's not to say that they're not racist. Like I see them on Facebook, they still have their issues, but their exposure is different. And so that the way that they relate to me is different. The kids that I ended up working with are the ones who went to private schools in Atlanta and then went to UGA or Georgia state, and then went directly to Mercer for law school. And they've probably seen someone who it looks like me, but who is just as smart as them. Maybe five times.

Erin Braxton (35:50)

Mmm.

Abby The Attorney (35:53)

maybe less than that. And so they're just they were appalled by my existence. They didn't know what to do with my existence. They didn't understand. She also comes from a place where she's won awards and she knows how to speak and she knows how to do to advocate for herself. No, because I would advocate for myself if not in the way that I would have done it today. And so they didn't really know how to talk to me, relate to me.

Erin Braxton (36:14)

Thank

Abby The Attorney (36:21)

or anything because I didn't have any problems saying, you know, if somebody tried to say something sideways, we're at a conference. you know this, I'm singing along with the song. you know Elton John? Yes. Yes, I do. ⁓ Why would you think that I wouldn't? Do you think that he plays exclusively on the white radio? Like I didn't have any problem doing that kind of thing. And so they didn't really know what to make of it. I had an incident and then I'll stop talking. I've been doing this for, but I had an incident where I got selected for the young ⁓

Young Lawyers Leadership Academy. I think that's what it was called. Young Lawyers Leadership Academy. And I was at a table with a few other people who gotten selected and one guy across the table decided to ask, how did you get here? To me. And the funny thing about it was when I applied, I wrote my application instead of typing it. And the lady called me and said she loved my handwriting. And she was just excited to read my application because she loved my handwriting. So I know that she's got that again.

And I know I did it on purpose. To him, I said, I don't know, maybe because I had four years of work experience in the jail before I went to law school, maybe because I also have a master's degree in criminology, maybe because I scored blah, blah, blah on the LSAT. And at that point, I don't even remember what my LSAT score was, but at that point he was like, okay, whatever. I said, no, no, no, no, no, no. You asked the question and I'm going to continue to answer it. So I just went.

on and on and on about things I had done before law school, after law school. And I said, I don't care how uncomfortable this table is right now, you started it.

Erin Braxton (37:55)

Okay, well let's play a little game. I'm gonna ask you guys some questions. So, you know, how would you handle it now? Like that kind of thing, okay? So...

You started a job, are you telling this to your younger self or whatever? You started a job and you get there and ⁓ white person, peer, wants to become friendly with you, wants to go to lunch, wants to talk to you. What's your reaction now?

Tracie Walker (38:28)

I always just say I have plans. Thanks, but no thanks. And I mean, I've been doing that at every job I've had because already know it's just it's an open invitation for let me complain about the manager. Let me complain about a coworker and then I'm going come back and when we have a meeting or I'm alone with the boss or with another coworker, I'm going to say, you know, I was at lunch with Tracy and she had a concern about this or like she said this about you, but it's going to be indirect the way that it's done.

So I just avoid it at all costs unless it's like a mandatory office lunch where everybody's there. But I just decline and I don't care if they take offense or if they think, know, ⁓ she's, cause I've been, you know, I've had a manager tell me, you know, you're not really trying to be part of the company culture. And I'm like, well, it's not that welcoming to me. So, you know, things like that, but yeah, I just, avoid any type of one-on-one interaction at all costs.

Erin Braxton (39:21)

Abby.

Abby The Attorney (39:22)

Same, same, if it was like elective, no thank you, I'm using my lunch break for something else. But what happens if you're an attorney sometimes is that we have a deposition that we're doing together and so why don't we get lunch beforehand? So you have to figure out a way to wiggle out of that. And I will make a distinction between the white women and the white men that I worked with at least.

⁓ I had regular lunch with some of the white men that were on my floor that were in different departments and those meetings ended up being very advantageous for me. One of them taught me what origination was and one of them walked me through getting my first client in and I thought because he was walking me through it and helping me figure out the rates and everything that he would want a percentage of the origination and he declined. ⁓

A lot of them gave me insight into the way some of the partners work because they know them as friends, whereas they're my bosses. so those ended up being really good for me to participate in. ⁓ But I never had a single lunch with another white woman that ended up being good.

Erin Braxton (40:31)

Okay. Work trip. Mandatory. Gotta go on the work trip. Everybody's going.

Tracie Walker (40:37)

I

got a story.

Erin Braxton (40:40)

What do you do? mean, they're like, let's get drinks. Let's go dinner. Obviously you're there for work. It's it's often not mandatory, I guess, but it's expected. And white people tend to get their feelings hurt when you don't want to engage with them in that way, when you don't want to do those things in that way. Write you up, report you act like you are you have a bad attitude. You don't like that's a part of the job. I mean,

Share your story Tracy and then you can, that'll tell us what you would do probably.

Tracie Walker (41:14)

So one of these trips I had to, we had to take a trip to, ⁓ it was like, we had to go to West Virginia and then New Orleans and I was going with an attorney and there was another male attorney that I was working with and he was wonderful. Like it's just, ⁓ I've definitely had some experiences with white men that were not that great, but for the most part, it's very much like just get your work done and that's all they're worried about. But

This was, we were going to meet up with this law firm that we had been dealing with. They did a lot of outside work for our office because I was working as an in-house paralegal at this job and this male attorney had told us, he said, I told so and so at this firm in New Orleans that we were, when we were going, he said, I told him that you guys were going to be in town. And she said, you know, let me know. Cause I'd love to take you guys out to dinner. And the look on this other female attorney's face, she's white. She, I mean, it was like a micro expression. She visibly looked.

pissed. And that was something I dealt with a lot because if there was a case or something like that, it wasn't uncommon for, you know, attorneys who were working with the office that did like our discovery and things like that, and deposition deposition to invite us out to dinner or drinks. And so my boss would always be like, yeah, you can, know, you can come to because you've been doing part of the work and the female attorneys would always get mad. And I even overheard one of them at one point make the comment, well, she shouldn't come because she supports that.

Right. And so was that kind of attitude. So I could already tell this attorney was ticked off that he had mentioned that we were coming and she had included me in the whole dinner invitation. But, I didn't think, you know, I just, I let it go. We get down there, we're, you know, we're driving and this attorney, like she didn't have much, she wasn't much of a driver. She couldn't read a map. And so I'm like trying to tell her, said, you know, I don't mind driving. can split, you know, ⁓ the time. And she was just kind of like, no, I'm going to drive. Like she wanted to be in control of everything. So thought, okay, fine.

So she starts driving and after like 30 minutes she wanted to go to a rest stop. And then she said, she said, I really need to to the restroom and get some snacks. And I was like, okay, so we stopped 30 minutes in. And then she was like, you know, she was like, since you had mentioned you wanted to drive, you know, you can just go ahead. And I thought, you know, here we go. I ended up driving, you know, for the entire trip, which I didn't mind because I wanted to get there. So we make it to New Orleans and we're out to dinner with this attorney and she brought her colleague.

And they were being friendly, just asking me questions and like, what else did I do at the office? And it was clear they were just trying to be nice. And she was just perturbed every time they tried to make conversation with me or I would say something, she would like, just could not wait for me to stop talking. And then she would just interject or try to like one up anything that I was saying or anything like that. But yeah, it's traveling, no. And then when you come back from the trip, there's always gonna be something that they're gonna say to the boss about,

you did something or you said something, they're going to try to insinuate in some way that you acted unprofessional. So it's kind of like you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. Like you really can't avoid it. Even if you don't go out to drinks with them afterwards, cause there've been times where we have had like dinners where a post that, you know, council has taken us out, excuse me, not opposing, but attorneys have taken us out and they'll say, Hey, would you guys like to go to a bar after dinner? And I'm like, you know, thanks, but no thanks. I'm to go ahead and go home. You know, y'all can do your thing and

Nobody says anything, but I think to be in support staff, I could get away with that. So, but I'm sure it's probably different if you're an attorney, but yeah.

Erin Braxton (44:35)

It's expected, Abby.

Abby The Attorney (44:37)

Two things

at the first firm that we were expected to attend every year. One was a CLE conference that was in St. Simon's. That was the most difficult to get out of because you actually do need your CLE, your continuing legal education credits, in order to keep practicing every year. And they would always rent one place for everyone to stay in, like a house or condo or whatever for everyone to stay in. That's the most uncomfortable situation. The other one was an annual trip to Lake Lanier.

with my glen here. The first year of that event, I tried to get out of it and I just couldn't, I couldn't make it happen. And so what I decided to do instead was I'm just not going to off the boat because what they would do is go on a boat, the boat would park somewhere and everyone swims and paddles around. I did not want to be in my swimsuit around these people, not even a one piece. And so

My idea was I'm just going to stay on the boat. I'm not taking any of my clothes off and I'll just find ways to still talk to people because the point is I'm supposed to talk and make friends and develop relationships outside of my, you know, a few people that I work for and get more work and get more clients and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So that one was we were we had our own hotel room for that one. So that's what made it better than the first one, but also uncomfortable.

⁓ I did complain about it to our one female partner and she looked at me like I had three horns on my head. Like, are you in my office even talking about? Get out of here. What are you complaining about? Funny enough, that same female partner went on to file a lawsuit against that firm and she had her attorney contact me to ask if I could testify on her behalf. And I said, don't ever call my phone again. Don't ever. I asked that woman for help.

Erin Braxton (46:28)

Yeah, yeah, how dare she?

Abby The Attorney (46:30)

How dare she? But I had heard things that happened to her when she was an associate, and I thought she would have mercy on me if I went and said, hey, I'm trying to figure out how to navigate this, but she had none. So all the years that I was there, I did participate in these two things. I always tried to find little ways of rebelling against.

all the activities. The first year that I went to the CLE conference, I dressed professionally everywhere that I went. Everyone was in very relaxed clothes. That was really uncomfortable for me because I'm new here. I'm establishing who I am. And it was before my bar results even came out. And I didn't feel like I could be casual the way that everyone else was. But they made a point of repeatedly pointing out that I had on business clothes at every event. ⁓

Tracie Walker (47:20)

Thank

Erin Braxton (47:22)

Either

of you guys get in like when you're trying to get out of these events, did it come up later? Because I remember when I first got out of school, everybody or I first had my first job. Everybody wanted to go drink afterward. I'm not a big drinker, you know, ⁓ and we don't we don't have the same freedoms as they do. Right. So if we do get a little intoxicated or something like that, obviously it's going to be looked at more harshly. Somebody's surely going to tell on us. So ⁓

I don't know, did you guys get any kind of reprimanding or kind of talk to about not wanting to participate, team player, you know, all that kind of thing?

Abby The Attorney (48:02)

not

reprimanded, but there was an exclusion, a feeling of exclusion. you don't know the inside jokes. You don't know about this thing that happened. Because what I would do to try to get away sometimes is just zone in on like one client and hang out with that person. Like I'm making that connection bigger as opposed to try mingle with the larger group. ⁓

or find something else that I'm supposedly interested, I'm playing a card game. You know, I just find some way to look like I'm a part but not be a part. So I would miss some of the drama that would happen. ⁓ But I also saw things that I wasn't supposed to see sometimes, you know, because I didn't get off the boat and get my hair wet. I didn't have to go and shower for the next event. And so I went early to the next event and the guys were all standing around, raiding the women on a scale of one to 10.

you know, which I was like, definitely not. They're not ever seeing me in my bathing suit after this is, you know, the behavior. But I don't know. I mean, like, I wish there was a way that I could say just don't go. But realistically, if you're working in that environment, a part of your success is based on who is referring cases to you. And so you have to participate, because if I don't get to know, there's no way for me to get to know some of those partners in in the office.

Erin Braxton (49:30)

I like the tip though that you gave when you did go, you tried to like stay on the edges, like you didn't try to like really intermingle with people so that you didn't have to become a part of the mess. I mean, that's actually a good tip. Okay, another one. ⁓

You, well, I guess you guys are going to say the same. I know you're going to say, I mean, it was just like, you know, you get invited to, you know, a wedding, you know, ⁓ or an event, like a big event of one of your coworkers. I mean, same difference. I'm sure you just don't go. mean, I have been to coworkers weddings before multiple times. ⁓ so I think I was too, I was still super young when I left corporate. So I was just still.

trying to be in it and didn't have that whole F-U mentality yet. So, ⁓ I guess you would, you would not attend something like that.

Abby The Attorney (50:22)

to a birthday party ⁓ for a kid who was similar in age to mine. And I think that was fine. But I probably would not attend a wedding. That would be an extreme amount of time that I'm committing to sitting at a table full of these people in my free time.

Tracie Walker (50:45)

I've been to one and it ended up like the entire office went, but it was just, was funny because this particular attorney, she had been hired, um, as a temp to work on a case and she had just wreaked other, other havoc and she had developed this reputation of just popping off at people. She threw tantrums. And when I say tantrums, mean, literally there were occasions where she had stomped her feet, slammed her door, cried about stuff. There was one incident where,

Erin Braxton (51:11)

and was working.

Tracie Walker (51:15)

Working

and yes still working and there was one incident where we had moved into a different building and somehow they put the furniture that the and that this place where I was working like the head attorneys were called deputies so this attorney's office they put his furniture in the office that was supposed to be for her and so when it came time to move in they were like she already had like moved her stuff in and they're like no this is actually you know so-and-so's office she just pitched a fit

And she was like, I'm not moving my stuff. And she was crying and stomping her feet and throwing the, and it was just, God. Like she literally just threw a fit. So this attorney, he was like, I'll just take the smaller office. It's fine. It's not a good deal. And so she did things like that. But anyway, she, you know, and this, this is just kind of a segue into the whole wedding thing. So she was in her mid thirties at the time when she got married and she would always just be on the phone with her parents. She was from Alabama. This was when I lived in Tennessee.

and she moved to Tennessee. So she was like literally crying and having a fit on the phone with her mom because her dad would not buy her wedding dress. So she had apparently went to some bridal boutique in Nashville and found a dress she wanted and called them. And you know, I'm sitting here thinking once you hit past the age of like 21, if your parents want to help you out financially, that's really just up to them, especially if you're getting married. And so she was like, you could hear her, she had her door shut and she was just like crying about the dress.

But she had been going around every day talking about, I'm getting married at this, you know, ⁓ person's house. And it was a famous country music singer that, you know, converted their house into like a touristy location. People who are watching this from Tennessee will know exactly what I'm talking about. But she, ⁓ she did that and she kept talking about, so and so is going to cater it. And we're going to have this kind of meat and we're going have these kinds of dipping sauces. And so I'm just like, okay, I'm going to go just to be nosy because I like that.

And then I found out later that, so I go and you know, it wasn't, of course it wasn't as grand as she was trying to make it out to be, but there was this black guy that she was friends with and she gave me an invitation. And then I found out that's the only reason why she gave me an invitation, which that that's another conversation I've dealt with that a lot too. But it was so funny because he showed up, but he showed up with his like, I guess at the time girlfriend or whatever, but I found out like that was one of the reasons why she'd invited me. And I, you that had just circulated around the office.

Yeah, so, yeah, because he's black on black. Why not?

Erin Braxton (53:45)

Of of course.

Tracie Walker (53:48)

Apparently she didn't know he had a girlfriend.

Erin Braxton (53:50)

One of

Yeah, one of the principals at the agency that I worked at admitted that when he goes to people's houses, that when he goes into their bathrooms, he goes through their medicine cabinets to see. So inviting them to the house is a hard no.

Abby The Attorney (54:12)

Bye.

Tracie Walker (54:13)

Mm-mm.

Erin Braxton (54:14)

I mean, is older guy too. This is like a boomer guy. This isn't like, you know, Gen X millennial or whatever this guy. So yeah, very nosy, very interested in what it is we do. I feel like I could ask you guys questions, but I know the answer. I know you guys are going to be like, absolutely not. No, Abby's like, I don't even have any white friends.

Tracie Walker (54:39)

Thank

Abby The Attorney (54:40)

I just... Yeah, I have one person who sought me out for friendship. ⁓ I also used to be a foster parent and this she was also a foster parent and she went to law school and it turns out that one of the children that was placed with her, the parents failed their plan. So those of us who foster were not adoptive homes. She was not an adoptive home.

but they asked her if she would like to turn over to being adopted home to adopt this young black boy. And she said to me, I don't have any black friends. Do you mind if we do things together if I adopt this black boy? Because I need for him to have a more diverse environment. And I felt like she was very serious about it because she also moved from the town that she was living in that was ⁓

in northern part of Georgia to Decatur, which is also way more diverse. So I said, you know, sure, maybe some people would not appreciate that approach, but I thought she was being really honest. So over the years, we've still kept in touch. As a matter of fact, when I started working for myself, one of the things that I did was eliminate as many bills as possible. And so I was talking to her about that and she was like, well, you can use my Hulu. ⁓

And so I've been on her Hulu account for years. I do find that every once in a while she has, well, I used to feel like she was short sighted on some racial issues when they would come up and we'd go back and forth on Facebook or whatever. But I've settled into thinking that she just, she wants to think the best of people so much that where I can draw the racist conclusion, it takes her a bit longer to get there because she wants so badly to think the best of people.

Erin Braxton (56:37)

So.

Abby The Attorney (56:37)

So

I would say she's the last white friend that I have standing. And it's only because of that acknowledgement that I really think she's trying to just see the best in people. But she will come to the right conclusion eventually. ⁓ There was a guy on her page that I was going back and forth with. This was a while ago. I don't argue with people on Facebook anymore. ⁓ And she sent me an aside and she said,

She talked about how nice he was when they were in school together and she really thinks that he's a good guy, but he's just not understanding what I'm saying. And I said, did you send him an aside also? You know, and at that point she's like, ⁓ you know what? You're right. I shouldn't be policing how you're, what you're saying and how you're saying it, you know? So I feel like if, if you have a white person in your life who can make that kind of course correction,

Tracie Walker (57:14)

Hmm. Right.

Abby The Attorney (57:32)

and you feel like going through it because you don't have to go through it, then there's someone that you can keep around.

Erin Braxton (57:37)

Yeah. Okay. And I've had experiences, I have a really good girlfriend, she's white, and I was trying to explain to her about coffee, no cream, and what makes something a coffee, no cream moment. I was trying to explain. And she did what white women do, and immediately centered herself, you know, and then proceeded to explain how she doesn't do that, right? But we're not talking about you right now, we're talking about...

why she didn't get why she didn't get any of it. No, actually it was a it was a story a friend of mine told me about how her husband's white co-worker tried to give another black co-worker the leftovers from her god, his face. Yes, the leftovers from her meal. And the husband was like, what what's wrong with that? And I was like.

Let me tell you what's wrong with that. You know, I mean, I'm thinking about black women cleaning houses for white people back in the day. you know, you flash you, you, you immediately know why would I want to eat your leftovers? We just had lunch together and the woman, I guess the black woman must have left early and he's like, hey, give Judy my leftovers. You know, she can get.

Tracie Walker (58:52)

You know. think you think about it.

Erin Braxton (58:56)

What? What? Like in her husband's like, oh, I didn't even think about that. He was completely confused. You know, these are black people. And I'm just my this is my best friend and I'm just like, girl, are you kidding me? So, didn't have a clue. And I was trying to explain this to my white friend and she just was confused, like.

Abby The Attorney (58:58)

in the Gilded ⁓

Erin Braxton (59:21)

because she probably would have done that. would probably, girl, I have some leftover. Because she's so nice and Southern and thinks that's the nice thing to do, but they don't realize, why do you think a black woman wants your leftovers in this day and age in 2025? I'm working the same job. We just sat down and ate the same meal at the same restaurant. I can afford the same food. Why would I want to eat behind you off of your plate, though?

Abby The Attorney (59:47)

Right. Put some thought into what you just did or what was just said. So a lot of them don't have that ability. They just immediately get angry. And if you can't be self-reflective, then we can't be friends because I would even do it. If somebody thought that something that I said was racist or sexist or whatever, I would take a moment. I might not agree with you in the end, but I'll take a moment to think about it.

Tracie Walker (1:00:13)

This is going way off topic, but it just, when you said that, it reminded me of just not fully thinking about, they think about things so differently. So, cause I remember when Trayvon Martin was murdered and being at work and one of my white coworkers said to me, you know, well, I just can't believe that this happened. And I didn't, I don't really think this is about race. was like, I thought racism was dead. And I looked at her, like I said, are you kidding me? I said, what would make you think that?

Erin Braxton (1:00:38)

They

know more than we do that racism isn't dead. They know more than we do that racism isn't dead because they're exposed to the things that their racist culture says. Right. So how can they say that? That's just that's I think that's gaslighting. But go ahead.

Tracie Walker (1:00:54)

yeah, but no, she was just literally and I'm just sitting here and you know, I thought this is just going to go left, but it's like, why do you think that this isn't about race? And she was like, well, you know, my nephew, my sister's taught my nephew to always be polite and respectful. And I was like, yeah, but he's also white. I said, it doesn't matter how he acts. I said a young black child can be as polite and respectful as possible, but that doesn't mean they're going to go home that night if they get pulled over by the police or if a

neighbor sees them out somewhere walking, there's always going to be, they're always going to be assumed that they're up to something that they shouldn't be doing, you know, but for her to just act like, you know.

Erin Braxton (1:01:33)

Yeah, so yeah, I You know, like I say, ⁓ there are some lovely white people lovely But I think I'm just in this era right now where I'm looking sideways at everybody. And you know Even when I scroll across a tick-tock video of the liberal far-left white woman sticking up for us. I still

I don't know if you guys do that, but I still, I don't necessarily think ally. I clicks. think views. I don't necessarily, same with the white men, you know, like who get on and say, white black women are so this and they're so that I still don't. Yeah. So,

Abby The Attorney (1:02:19)

I especially yeah,

I agree with you, especially if they don't have any original thought behind it if they're just regurgitating what we've already heard black women scholars say repeatedly the only ones that I tend to believe and I still might not like like the video I might just watch it right are the ones that are telling us how they came out of a racist or mega heavy environment and what the things were that made them like change the way they think about things like

I watch those videos with pretty wrapped attention because I am interested in how that happens. But the ones who just come up and it's like they spend all day long debating with other people on political principles and they seemingly are left. That tends to me to be a little bit more performative and it's about your money than it is genuine because the people who are talking about coming out of indoctrination, they're getting backlash from their own community.

So I feel like if they're withstanding that backlash and staying in that same lane of telling how they got to the place where they are now, that feels more genuine because it's not just praise the whole way.

Tracie Walker (1:03:27)

Yeah, they're backing it. There's one lady that I've been following and she's she does the same thing, but she's always talking about these are things that white people do. They let you know they're racist and she talked about how you know things that she heard growing up and like you said, she's got concrete evidence there where she's saying this is what I heard as a child and now that I'm older and ⁓ but if you can you can tell the authenticity. I think one thing is black people were very good at spotting performative allyship. yeah.

So when I see that, just keep scrolling because I know like, especially with the way things are now, there's a lot of posts like that. So it's, know.

Erin Braxton (1:04:07)

I saw and I think I'm not impressed. might be the same woman. It was like an older like maybe she was in her 60s or something white woman and she was breaking down how they were raised to think and how they were raised to not say anything. So even though they might see it there raised to not speak up just to act like you know it's not happening kind of thing. I saw another.

woman, this is a while ago, if I find it, I'll send it to both of you guys. She was a teacher. I don't know if you guys saw her white blonde lady. And she was explaining why she had a problem with her black coworker who was being acknowledged and who had passed her. Did you see that? And it was so

Abby The Attorney (1:04:56)

Yes, I saw that one.

Tracie Walker (1:04:58)

Yeah, I did too. She was talking about how she felt threatened by her. But yeah, she owned up to it. She owned up

Erin Braxton (1:05:03)

found out

about and talked about how ⁓ she was so used to the black woman being her sidekick and propping her up, which I found myself doing with ⁓ the client that I left last year, fired me last year. I was constantly like her bulldog, like her bully, like her voice. I was always propping her up. And I was in that... One of my therapists said, like, you're like her mammy or something. And I was like, ⁓

I couldn't even say nothing, because I was just, you know, but yeah, it's just really interesting because they're raised and you know, this white woman that I was working for, you know, she would just cry on live camera if we had tech issues, just put her hand, her head in her hands and cry. So it's just really interesting to hear the ones who I feel like are ⁓ genuine explain to us why it is the way they are. Like they're thinking about it, you know what I'm saying? So again,

There's definitely some white women allies, but for the most part, I'm looking at all of them sideways, like most of them sideways. I'm not just like, let me follow. I'm like you, Abby. I'll watch it. I might not like it. just, I almost don't even want to watch it because I'm giving them a view, you know, but I'll just scroll by.

Abby The Attorney (1:06:22)

I watch it because I'm interested in the psychology of it from the other side. Like, I know what experiences I had, but I don't understand why the other person felt the need to behave in such a way. So like the one that you were talking about with the school teacher, that was pretty enlightening to me because I would get comments about, well, my billing gets marked down, but your billing doesn't get marked down. And the first thing I would think of is why are you looking at my billing?

I don't look at your billing. I don't have time to look at your billing. I have other things to do. And the second thing I would think about is, do you want tips? Because if I was in your position, I would want tips. I wouldn't just keep lamenting about the same thing every single month. I would want tips on how does she make it so the partners don't cut her billing so I can get like her. ⁓ But the fact that they didn't do that, but they would just make the comment on a monthly basis. I was like, what is this weird cycle that I'm in?

So when I watch their videos, I feel like I get some insight into that. Another time I was just making breakfast, minding my own business, and a white woman attorney came in and she was like, how do you do it? And I said, what are you talking about? And she's like, just how do you do it? Like, how do you get your hours done and you still like look put together and you're just sitting here making breakfast? Like, how do you do it? And I was like, I don't know what you're asking me, because you have a nanny.

Tracie Walker (1:07:49)

See, that's the thing. It's like we're constantly being watched. It was the same nanny lady. I am privileged. I am better, but you still look like you're doing it all and getting it done. How can that be? Well, keep up with your billables and I can't, know, because I've been taught that I'm better.

Abby The Attorney (1:08:02)

Exactly.

Erin Braxton (1:08:08)

Yeah, but been coddled and not held to the same standard. we are, you know, like my dad said, they can probably do what you do, but they got to catch you first. So like that.

Abby The Attorney (1:08:08)

Exactly

Erin Braxton (1:08:21)

It's just like, you're behind. Like they want to say we're behind or we are not as, you know, high thinking and all of that. But think about the years of grooming that we've had as just walking around in a black woman's body where, you know, we just have to do the damn thing. So like, yeah, they don't get it, you know? you have a nanny. What do I do? my God. You know, their moms probably didn't work and all this kind of stuff. I think the I think the moms used to look at my mom.

be like, my God, it's so cool that you work. I don't think they thought it was cool. They probably thought, poor thing. know, poor thing, she has to work. My dad told her she didn't have to work, but it doesn't matter, even if he didn't. You know, she wasn't the type of person to not work, right? But yeah, they've just been raised seeing and experiencing something completely different. So you do look like Superwoman. One of my white friends said that to me the other day. You're just like so amazing. It's amazing. It's like, no.

It's not, I'm just doing what I'm trying to do because I cannot go back into the workplace and work for anyone. It's just not, I don't think it's in my DNA to do so. So I've got to hustle and grind so I can prevent that from happening, you know? So yeah, I think it's, it's.

Abby The Attorney (1:09:37)

would have preferred actually to just stay in law firm. would have if they I feel like I was pushed out because it just it got so bad the gulf between the racism and sexism and who I was becoming kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger.

And it got to a point where my sanity was really being tested. And if it wasn't for that, if I could just go to work and work and not have to deal with any interpersonal relationships in the office, I would have loved it because I love to get my work done and leave. Whereas now I am, I'm the, I'm the marketing, I am the accounting, I am the face and all the ads. Like I don't particularly care for all of that. ⁓

I like the fact that at five o'clock my day ended and ⁓ yeah, but now that I've been doing it for three years, I know for sure there's no way somebody could buy me out. One of the firms that I used to work for offered to buy me out and bring me back as a partner. And I was like, I know and you know that that's not going to be possible.

Like, let's be honest with each other. It's not possible. So we'll just keep on doing like you said, make contract work. I get my assignments done and send it back to you. And that's our relationship that works better than me having to deal with you guys on a regular daily basis.

Erin Braxton (1:11:05)

But isn't that fun?

Tracie Walker (1:11:06)

And

that's what people ask me about being a paralegal or, you know, working at a private law firm. It's like, I always say it's not the work, it's the people and it's the culture that's been created. It's a very competitive culture. And you know, if you're in a, you know, if you work in big law, it's hierarchical. So you've got that. And then you've got the misogyny and all the other things that there's just so many other like crazy things that go on. I mean, we had a, we had an attorney that they would only hire assistants for him that had to, they had to be like 50 years and older.

Because he just could not behave. They would not give him a young assistant. They just wouldn't. You know, there were, there were just a lot of incidents, you know, of things that went down. it's like stuff like that. see those, and another thing too, there's just so many other things that are going on behind the veil that you just don't see amongst white people in general at work.

Erin Braxton (1:11:41)

White man obviously.

Tracie Walker (1:11:59)

that bleed into how they treat you. It's like what you had mentioned earlier, Abby, a lot of the white women, they're facing the same thing from some of the men, but they're just not speaking up about it or they're being silent, but then it just trickles down to you. They'll project it onto you and it's just a lot, but yeah.

Abby The Attorney (1:12:17)

Yeah, so I learned later on just exactly what you're saying that sometimes the aggression that I would get towards me or some of the mean comments that would came towards me would be because a partner praised me in my absence. ⁓

Tracie Walker (1:12:32)

And I'll tell you something about white men that just from working with them a lot of times they will do that on purpose because they very much know how their women are and They will say things so-and-so always looks nice and then they start picking at your clothes or something like that Like you just don't even know what's being said, but they'll sometimes they will do things like that Just on purpose just to start a little You know, and if that bias is already there that just makes it even worse

Erin Braxton (1:12:56)

Why do you come to this, Tracy? Because that is such an interesting observation. I mean, you know, I don't know. guess sometimes my head has been so far in the clouds because I'm just like, I can't get out of here or whatever with these people. But you make some really interesting observations. You do.

Tracie Walker (1:13:20)

well, thanks. You know, I really think a lot of it just came from I have spent my entire life in a P.W. space, but my parents, think, were good at making sure like I was very much aware of what I was dealing with. It did. It made me very observant. And one of my friends that I had actually met at work, she would tell me that she said, if you say like somebody's weird or something, she was like, I always believe you because it never fails. They show themselves. Something goes down. Something happens because she was like.

We had actually met at one of my jobs and we're still friends and she's a woman of color. And there was something, we had a meeting and it was just some weird stuff that was just going on. And we left the meeting and she had just started and I was kind of leery cause you know, I'm just, that's how I treat women period in the workplace all around. And I looked at her and I just, something told me, I was like, I can be candid with her. And she had just started and I told her, said, keep your resume up to date. I said, do not stay here past a year.

And she saw all the craziness that was going on. we, she's one of my best friends now. We still keep in touch, but she was like, you were right. And I'm so glad that I left and she ended up getting a job, you know, somewhere else and moving and leaving. we, you know, we kind of laugh about it now, but there was a, she had her daughter was like eight years old at the time when she was working there and she brought her to the office one day. And one of the attorneys that was there,

He would have this, he had a subscription like National Geographic magazines, I guess, because he would always bring like a stack of them in and they're off the way the attorney's offices were set up. Their doors had like a slight frosting, but you could kind of see through them. So he would come in and he would take his magazines and he put them in a Manila file folder to make it look like he was working, but he wasn't. He was just looking at his little magazines and her daughter was there one day and she was like.

Cause this department was overstaffed and that's just the thing when you're working in government, they're either overstaffed or understaffed. had way too many people. We had way too many people there. And one day she said, mommy, said, why is that man always looking at magazines? Do these people work here? Because they were just like, and the other female attorney I've talked a lot about her and some of my stories, she would come in in the morning, 9 a.m. on the dot. She'd put her things away and then she'd go in his office and they would talk until 1130. He'd go.

get his lunch, he'd at his desk, and then she would go downstairs, because on the first floor there's this huge loop where you could walk, and she would go downstairs and walk for like two hours. Then she'd come back upstairs, she'd send out a few little emails, and then they would talk some more until was until 4.30, and then they would leave. But they were so busy.

Erin Braxton (1:15:56)

You're perceptive. Like, that's the word. It's funny.

Tracie Walker (1:16:00)

So...

Abby The Attorney (1:16:01)

You are perceptive. If you're looking for a second career, you could be like a human lie detector.

Tracie Walker (1:16:08)

something. My friends email me they're like hey I got a date with this person can you find out some stuff?

Erin Braxton (1:16:09)

than like.

⁓

Like an private investigator like something because you you make some very interesting observations and one last question I'm gonna ask Abby because I know you got to go. ⁓ I feel like I wasn't prepared. Did you feel like your parents prepared you because you said you grew up on Air Force bases and stuff like that and then you know Tracy over here has got like, you know, she's got like the insight and I just feel like I

Got it, but it was late.

Abby The Attorney (1:16:45)

Mm-hmm. No, no shade to my parents, but they did not prepare me for the environment that I was going into. ⁓ They would not have known how to prepare me for this environment. It was so very different. The things that my dad and mom had to work through when they came in, you know, of age were completely different, completely different. My dad drafted into Vietnam.

⁓ My mom was a homemaker for many years. When I was in middle school, she went and got her associate's degree. ⁓ But there's nothing, there was no, I didn't even have the vocabulary to explain the things that were happening to me at work. When it got to the point that I left the job and went to Mexico, people were asking me like, what's going on? You have a pretty good pay, you have a pretty good degree of freedom.

surrounding the job and the hours that you work, you go on vacation whenever you want to, you can afford to take these vacations, what is making you so upset? And I couldn't explain it because it wasn't in the terms that I understood to be racism, know, going into it. And so, no, I wasn't prepared for that environment. I had a false sense of preparedness because I had grown up around a decent amount of white people, but they were not

corporate white people. were not upper class white people. They were not white people who came from lines of college degrees. know, some of the kids that I worked with, that I ended up going to law school with, their parents didn't even come to their graduation. And when I asked why, oh, well, they've been to so many. This is not really a big deal. You know, so that's

the attitude of some of the people that I was working with, these are not the same white people I grew up around. You know, these white people, I was invited to a wedding and a bridal shower for one of the girls that I went to law school with. And I understood the concept of people having a second home. But until we got to her family's lake house, which was fully stocked with clothing and bicycles and boats, I didn't

Tracie Walker (1:18:43)

Yeah.

Abby The Attorney (1:19:05)

really conceptualized what that meant. And then we went out onto the boat in the middle of the river and there was ⁓ a full bar and restaurant in the middle of the river. It never occurred to me that this existed. So I had not been around this kind of money and these kind of people to know the ways that they operate and the way that racism and sexism is different. I also didn't even understand how racism and sexism collide. So

Tracie Walker (1:19:31)

Mm-hmm.

Abby The Attorney (1:19:33)

⁓ There was a lot that I was, they did their best. They did the best with their own experiences to prepare me. ⁓ There were multiple occasions where my mom would step in and stand up for me when things happened when I was in school. But these were things that I just didn't even know how to, like if I told my mom I was standing in the cafeteria and someone complimented me on being able to get my hours done and being able to look nice at work, she would be like, okay, what's the problem?

Erin Braxton (1:20:02)

Right.

Abby The Attorney (1:20:02)

which is like the undertone of it that I can now explain better and that you kind of understand because you've been there or you understand because you've been there. That's something that I couldn't communicate to her.

Erin Braxton (1:20:13)

You

say racism, sexism,

Tracie Walker (1:20:15)

And

see, that would have been a red flag for me.

Erin Braxton (1:20:17)

how they collide. you just touch on that real quick? Because you talked about it in the episode you were on, but we didn't get into it too much.

Abby The Attorney (1:20:27)

Right. ⁓

So one example would be the treatment between me and Veronica, the other black woman who worked there that I was secret friends with. She was a dark skinned there between the two of us, I know she was the much nicer person, much easier to get along with, the much more outgoing person. I was a little bit more reclusive and argumentative.

But the collision of racism, in this instance, colorism and ⁓ sexism would be that I was tolerated a lot more and infantilized a lot more, invited to participate in things a lot more than she was. Just because of the perception she's a dark skinned woman, they automatically would assume that she was argumentative. There was one incident that happened on her way to work. She got pulled over. At the time, she was wearing a little Afro.

And ⁓ the officer made some derogatory comments about her hair. ⁓ And I don't know exactly how people at work found out about it, but people at work found out about it. And there was a bunch of talk about, what did she say before he made that comment? What did she do before he made that comment? That I'm just 100, you just have to believe me, I'm 100 % sure that if it was me in that situation,

they wouldn't have said that. They may have still offered some kind of excuse for the officer, but she was always assumed to be argumentative where I was not. Even if we were sitting at the same table and I was arguing, it was still taken better. She would also get comments sometimes about her wardrobe. Is it too tight or is it, you know, like is that color nice on you or maybe this color would be better on you? ⁓ That was clear like colorism and racism.

And no man is going to receive any comments on what color suit he's wearing. those things, and then like on a bigger level, I think the kind of work that we got would differ, the kind of clients that we got exposed to would differ. They were a little bit more willing to put me in front of a white employer, a white client. And she tended to get a lot more, if we had adjusters that came off as more, how do I say this? ⁓ Adjusters that came off as more like,

girlfriend or what they would call ghetto, they were more likely to send that to her. Yeah. So do you ever have any ⁓ concerns or do you ever wonder maybe what would have happened if your parents didn't send you to so many PWI spaces? Do you feel like that was too much of a burden on young tracing?

Tracie Walker (1:23:05)

You know, it's interesting because a lot of people have asked me that there just weren't a lot of options. And so that was one thing, like a handful of black parents is what they did. They would send their kids to the closest, you know, private school because at that time when I was coming up, my brothers and I have two older brothers going to a public school, which they were already in when I was enrolled in this school, private school, I was there kindergarten through 12th grade. They started middle school, middle, excuse me, junior high and high school.

they were already having like issues in the public school system in our hometown with teachers. And it was kind of like, we all know about the from school to prison for young black boys. And so it was just a constant thing. And that was really what caused my parents to put us in a private school. But, you know, yeah, sometimes I wonder what if I had grown up like in a city, you know, ⁓ like Atlanta or Chicago or New York, where there could have been, there's bigger pockets of community with black people. In Tennessee, there's not.

And so again, because of where, you know, my family, that's where my mom's originally from it. I think it just happened, but because of being educated, you're going to have to interact with white people no matter what you do, especially if you're going into a corporate space. So I feel like it prepared me. It hasn't always been easy, but, ⁓ and I don't say that like with, you know, a despondent, you know, retrospection, like, man, I really wish they hadn't done that. But, you know, I do wonder sometimes what

how would I have turned out or what direction my life would have taken if I had been in a more predominantly black space as opposed to growing. But when you grow up in Tennessee, it's very hard to do that because those, even if you're in a public school, you're probably going to be the only black kid in your class. And I know my brothers were before they, you know, put them in the school as well. They were the only, there's like one or two black students. That's it. So you're still going to have to deal with it. But the thing about being in a public school and being, you know, you know, one, ⁓

black student, it's a lot harder dealing with the teachers because it's a public school. In the private school, you're dealing with privilege, but it's different because people want to keep up this appearance that they're nice people. know, so there's a lot more, ⁓ there were definitely more opportunities available. There's a lot of things that were instilled in me from growing up in those spaces because when I've, you know, I've worked with other black women, you know, at some jobs, there was one black lady that I've worked with and she's one of my friends, but

And we've had this conversation and she was actually in the army. And there were things that I would tell her when another white coworker would say something to her, like one instance we were on a call and this guy basically just like was indirectly telling her she dropped the ball on something and do her job. And we were the only two black women in this meeting on this conference call. And I clocked it immediately and everybody else did too, of course. And I'm just looking at her and she totally didn't pick up on like his sarcasm in the way he was speaking to her.

And after the call, she was like, why was everybody looking at me so funny? said, you do realize he was basically just reaming you in front of everybody. That's the way he was giving you all those questions and everything. And she was like, I just didn't notice that. And she has, she has said the same thing to me. She said in the military, everybody's just, you know, on kind of this equal playing field because we're in the military. It's like, you just, you gotta look out for each other. She said, I just didn't pick up on it, but even things with other, you know, white women, the way that they would speak to her.

You know, she just didn't pick up on some of those things. So I feel like it has equipped me to navigate those spaces. but yeah, I wonder sometimes. But I've never felt like, man, I really hate that they did that because I think in their mind, they were just thinking, you know, we want our kids to have the best opportunities available. And I think a lot of black parents during that time, that was their thought. We got to put them in private school because they're going to have access to things. And I did. But, you know, it came with a cost. So.

Erin Braxton (1:26:50)

We talked about that, I think, a little bit when you were on my podcast, because my parents... ⁓

My parents moved us out to the white part of town, you know, and so I, you know, was the only one as well. I think about that often as well, like, but they tried to do things. I don't know if it was possible where you were. So, you know, normally kids will get it in church or something. We didn't go to church a lot. My mom didn't require us to go to church as much as she probably wanted to. And so we went to an all black dance school, you know, but it still was.

So I wonder like now if I had kids and if I were ⁓ deciding. But I think I like the way I turned out because of those things as well. Like I feel like people before you jumped on the call, Abby, we were talking about how people were talking and talking about the way we speak, like, you know, like white girls or whatever. And ⁓ I love the way I speak because I've made money doing voiceover because of the way I speak. You know what I'm saying? So I don't I don't

I don't get mad about it. mean, it's an ignorant comment, but yeah, you know, ⁓ that's what that that was the time. That was the time. That's what you did back then. ⁓

Tracie Walker (1:28:02)

Right.

Abby The Attorney (1:28:02)

The reason I ask is because my exposure to having this other skill set of trying to navigate that world is much lower than yours. It's less years. But I have such resentment for having to like, why can't I just work? I have so much resentment for this little, this chunk of my life that I've had to spend dealing with these issues. And here I am with just my small chunk and you have years of it.

Tracie Walker (1:28:31)

But I think the difference like my parents, they just they knew, you know, what they were going to because they've dealt with it on, you know, some level. But my dad first thing like, you know, we started school. He was like, here's the thing. You know, this these are some things you're probably going to run into. And this is, know, so, yeah, yeah.

Erin Braxton (1:28:33)

Yeah, but

But Abby, think that there's something. ⁓

Abby The Attorney (1:28:52)

Well, we'll

see. I'm turning to something silly now. I'm turning to reality TV now.

Tracie Walker (1:28:59)

You're not. Just think too, your story is inspiring people because there's so many young Black women out there who are aspiring to be lawyers and to see your content, they're going to know, okay, here's some things I might run into. that's for me what prompted me to talk about it was just because I kept seeing videos of Black women talking about, there was one woman said, this is my third job and it's the same thing. I'm starting to think I'm the problem. And I never thought I was the problem because I knew this is why they're acting like this.

But just knowing that you're not the only one, but there's many of us that have dealt with it on, you know, on some level, but it's able to, you know, to create that space where we can just cohesively just sit and have that conversation. Like, yeah, it's happened to me too, because the outside world thinks we're crazy. Cause I have conversations with my brother and he was like, and I said, this is why, you know, most black women feel some kind of way towards white women. It's because we see the other side, they don't act that way in front of y'all.

Yeah. So a lot of sometimes I do have stories of male attorneys having to. Yeah, but as a whole overall, they do act differently.

Erin Braxton (1:30:01)

No, no.

All right, guys, I think we've had a nice conversation.

Abby The Attorney (1:30:10)

Thank you so much. It's so nice to meet you. love the series. I love what you're doing, Erin. And this is really helpful to me because it just helps me get these things off my chest and figure out how to deal with them.

Erin Braxton (1:30:25)

Yeah, because they're still there. mean, honestly, and even me just having the conversations brings back up a lot of things for me that sometimes I totally forget until somebody starts talking and then I'm just like, yeah. So thank you guys so much for joining me today. And you know what? We'll see you in the next episode.