Dr. Kwanza Falaka (00:00)

this young lady had submitted a formal complaint about me for bullying. And so was just so devastated and so hurt.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (00:08)

They have, you know, they have conversation with me, but then it comes back to me about how they really feel about me. I will talk to anybody, right? Because I just want people to feel seen. But when I do it to black women, it's almost like I have to prove myself to them that I'm just as black as they are. My feelings were so crushed. Right. They were so hurt. I remember going into my office after that happened and I did cry.

Natasha Williams (00:33)

This woman turned on me, said I was a BITCH. She tried to take me to court ⁓ to say that I dismissed her on false grounds. Do you know, I cannot lower the standard for you just because you're a black woman. That's it. I cannot allow you to get away with this because we've got an obligation to our clients.

Erin Braxton (01:12)

Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee No Cream podcast. My name is Erin Braxton and I'm the host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, we are unapologetically dedicated to black women and we share what I like to call Coffee No Cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in business and in life just because we are black women. Now, today is part one of my series, Make It Make Sense.

In this series, we're going to be talking about why black women cannot seem to get along with each other in the workplace and maybe in life as we progress with the series. But this is the first part of the series. This is the first episode in the series. Now I have with me people that I've had on the podcast before that I thought would be able to add to this very needed conversation. We've got Dr. Kwanza Falaka-Gipson

We've got Natasha Williams and we've got Dr. Lydia Bullock. So I'm not gonna get into anything else right now. I wanna get right into the episode because we talked for a very long time and I think that ⁓ I just wanna jump in. I just wanna jump in. So let's get into the episode. Welcome everyone to the podcast. Today we've got Dr. Kwanza Falaka.

We've got Natasha Williams and Dr. Lydia Bullock and we are going to be discussing a topic that you guys have brought up in the comments. I mean repeatedly, repeatedly. This is going to be the beginning of a series I'm calling Make It Make Sense because it doesn't make sense to us why black women are having so many problems with each other in the workplace, also in life. think

as well, online, internet bullying, all sorts of things. But we're going to be talking about Black women and how we relate to each other in the workplace today. So I'm going to go around and let each one of these wonderful, amazing women introduce themselves. We're going to start with Dr. Kwanza Filaka. Just tell everybody a little bit about yourselves. You guys have seen her on the podcast before. But she's just going to tell you a little brief info about herself.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (03:26)

So I am Dr. Kwanza Falaka I am actually a PhD in humanities, which is so important these days. I think we forgot about humanities, but I am also an author, a speaker, a nonprofit, director of a nonprofit, Girlfriend Therapy. You'll probably hear a little bit about that because my story is going to tap into that a little bit. I am originally from Philadelphia, but I live here in the DMV now and I'm excited to be here with you, Erin, and all these other lovely ladies. So thank you for having me.

Erin Braxton (03:55)

Thank you for being here. Natasha Williams, you guys know she is our guest from over the pond, across the pond, how do you say it, from the UK. And she's doing some amazing research. So Natasha, tell the viewers a little bit about yourself.

Natasha Williams (04:11)

So yes, I'm Natasha Williams. I'm based in the UK and I'm a wellbeing strategist and a researcher. And I'm researching something that I call the excellence tax, how black people, black professionals within the workplace are working twice as hard to be seen as ⁓ just normal in the workplace. So yeah.

Erin Braxton (04:36)

Okay, yeah, excellent, excellent. And finally we have Dr. Bullock. She is our youngster in the group, very bright, wise, wise, wise woman. I know Dr. Lydia, we work out together many times a week for what, two, three years now? So yeah, so Dr. Lydia, tell us about yourself.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (04:58)

I'm Dr. Lydia Bullock. I have a doctorate degree in educational leadership. I currently serve as a C-suite executive for a nonprofit. ⁓ I've been working in leadership for several years now. As Erin said, I am still considered a young professional. So extremely grateful to be in this space with these beautiful women and excited to empower and uplift black women in this space.

and shed some white on the topic as well. So thank you for having me Erin and thank you for sharing space with me ladies.

Erin Braxton (05:32)

Thank you. Okay, let's just kick it off with a simple question each of you can answer. ⁓ When you think about black women on black women in the workplace, what is your initial thought? What is your immediate thought when you think about the dynamic of black women with other black women in the workplace? We'll start with Dr. Lydia.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (05:57)

for sure. when I initially when I think about black women in the workspace, I get excited because I have others that I share identity with in the workspace. I think about how many, you know, spaces that we're able to create for each other and even other spaces that we can create for others outside of our identity to, you know, educate and break down some of the barriers and stereotypes. But on the flip side of that,

I believe that sometimes being black in the workspace, sharing the space with other black women ⁓ can cause, you know, competitiveness and ⁓ can play, you know, it can reveal your insecurities in a lot of areas. So I think it depends on how you look at it, what space you're working in, who you're working with, the environment that you're working in, ⁓ and the leadership, because I think that matters so much. Like, what are the identities that, you know,

are on the leadership teams and what opportunities are they creating for everybody, for black people, and again, the stereotypes that are, you know, are signed and that comes with it.

Erin Braxton (07:06)

Okay, Natasha.

Natasha Williams (07:09)

Well, yeah, I agree with Dr Bullock. I do find that there is a lot of competition when we go into the workplace. And I think from a young age that we're sort of told that you've got to work hard to succeed. You find that ⁓ at home, they tell us that we're going to be the only one. If you get to the top, there's so much competition in the workplace for women.

we're trying to get the...

We're trying to get the attention of the person with power to see us, to recognise that we do exist and sometimes we think we're the only one that can get there or it's only going to be one of us. It's not going to be you, it's going to be me. I'm going to work harder than you. I'm going to get that person's attention. I'm going to get that job and I don't want anything to do with what you've got to do but...

It is my job and it's that creates so much ⁓ level of competition that creates scarcity. We have a scarcity mindset about it and it's just hard to work with other black women in the same space half the time I find.

Erin Braxton (08:34)

Mmm. Alright, Dr. Kwanza.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (08:37)

⁓ It's such a good question. I have to preface it with I come from a family of women So I when black women are locked in it is the most beautiful thing ever like I have Like just between my aunts and my first cousins There's easily 30 40 of us that I just grew up with and just that energy and my mother was always a woman's woman So just growing up with that energy. I am a fan of

connecting with and being in work environments with black women. When it's good, it is so good. And I've had that experience. And when it's bad, it's so disheartening because it doesn't have to be bad. And I've had that experience, unfortunately, as well. But I will say that for every poor experience that I've had in the workplace or otherwise with black women, have, without question, had 100 great experiences with black women.

So when I do find a difficult situation with a black woman in a workplace, is, the only word is disheartening. It is completely disheartening for me.

Erin Braxton (09:42)

Okay, well, that's a great segue. We're going to get into some coffee no cream moments that you guys have experienced. I myself, like I, when I was working in corporate, I was usually the only one and I'm actually not true. ⁓ When I worked for Neiman Marcus, there were other black women, but everybody was kind. I didn't have this problem. ⁓ I had the great, wonderful experience that you're talking about, Dr. Kwanza. So let me let you start and give us

Just one of your coffee no cream moments, something that you've experienced when it comes to working with other black women in the workplace that has not been so positive.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (10:21)

So I'll share one, as I was preparing for this, Erin, I was thinking about different situations that I had and one experience that I said I have to share because I think it shows different dynamics. And this was a black woman that worked with me who went to leadership and accused me of bullying in the workplace. And I was so devastated. And I think our leadership, kudos to them. They actually handled it really well. The environment that we work in, we are actually... ⁓

contractors for the government. we're like ⁓ consultants, so much like ⁓ lawyers, we actually have billable hours. So we work with the government, we bill the hours that we work with them back to the government. And in some cases, we're not just consultants, but we're actually consultants and we're actually doing the work. And so in this scenario, I was working with a cross-functional team. There was three of us, myself, a young black woman, and a white guy that worked with us.

And I was in charge of the team. But when I look at the dynamics, because we were all professionals, we were all peers, ⁓ I felt like I was just responsible for being kind of the forward-facing for the company with the client. And so kind of reporting back to the company, you know, different things that's going on with the client. And from my perspective, everything was great. But we did have some guidelines and rules. And one of those things was that our core hours was from 10 to 2, which meant that whatever time you came in, you had to be in by 2.

And whatever time you left, had to be there, but being by 10 rather, and whatever time you left, you had to be there at least until two. So you couldn't leave earlier than two unless you had appointments or whatever. So we had core hours. This particular person, she would like always come in like at 11, know, 10 45, like it was just always an issue with hours, but you know, for her. And we would have meetings with the client first thing in the morning. And so I often felt like,

you know, I had to kind of cover down. for me, if I had a 10 o'clock meeting with the client, I would, you know, prepare for that meeting. I would have, you know, ⁓ you know, if there was any information I needed to provide to support my updates or anything like that, I was always prepping for the meeting in advance. And needless to say with her coming in at 10 45, we had the 11 o'clock meeting. It's like, you really don't have time to prep. And because we were such a small team, it was just the three of us supporting this client. ⁓

we kind of covered down. we had like primary, secondary, tertiary kind of responsibilities across the three of us. So for example, she could be primary in one area and I was like her secondary. And then the guy was the third person in charge, right? Or, you know, so if she was out, then I would kind of step in and give updates for whatever was happening in her space or her area of expertise. We all shared like the core skills so we could all kind of fill in for each other in that way. ⁓ So.

For me, when she was coming in late, I always felt like I had to not just prepare for my updates, but I had to prepare for her updates as well. So we've often had conversations about, you need to be here in time. You need to have to, and this is just kind of like the leadership hat, but I didn't really want to have to wear that hat. I just wanted to be like, hey, as a team member, we need to make sure that we're covering down for each other. And if I'm preparing my updates as well as your updates, and it's kind of giving me double work.

I would feel more comfortable if you're here in time to give, your updates. And then oftentimes she didn't have time to prep. So I would have to, and by the way, you know, feeling even as she was giving her updates. And so I think that probably caused a little tension between the two of us as well. But for me, you know, it was all as long as the client was doing well, we were meeting our deliverables, like everything was fine except for that one issue. So fast forward probably about a year or so we were working together and ⁓

One Friday my boss called me and said, hey, I need you to come. We work ⁓ on a client site. So we were, you know, client facing 100%. And so my boss calls me one Friday and say, hey, I need you to stop past corporate. ⁓ well, after you get off and it's like, nobody wants to go to corporate at the end of the day on a Friday, like that's never good. So I'm just like, well, I go, what, what, could he want? You know,

And I remember this time so specifically because it was the weekend that the Whitney Houston movie was playing on Lifetime. And so me and a girl, we were talking about like, my God, are you going to watch the Whitney Houston thing? Like we were having a cool conversation. We were both surprised that ⁓ Yaya DaCosta was playing Whitney Houston. So, you know, we were excited about it, right? So we have a conversation and I'm like, yeah, I got to go over to corporate. Like, you know, I'll call him Daniel. Daniel wants to see me.

And so I go over to corporate and Daniel was just kind of like, meet in a conference room and he's like, so how's everything going? And I'm like, everything's great. You know, the client's happy. We're meeting the deliverables. He was like, how's the team dynamics? I'm like, the team is great. Like everybody is holding their own. You know, I had nothing but favorable things to say because it was for me, it was like a really successful team. and so he's like, cause there's no issues over there. I was like, I don't think so. think everybody is fine. You know, we're working well together. You know, I share with him the structure and how we're.

you know, backing each other up three levels. And he was just like, okay, you know, so that was that, you know, so probably about a week or two later, we were having a corporate meeting and one of the partners, he was, you know, we're standing by talking and he was like, so how are things going? And I'm giving him the same update. Things are great. Everybody's great. The client's happy. And he was like, so Daniel didn't talk to you. And I'm like, yeah, I just talked to Daniel a couple of weeks ago. He was like, but he didn't talk to you.

And I'm like, yeah, we just talked like a couple of weeks ago. And he was like, okay. And I'm like, what, what's going on? Like the way he said, it's like, what's going on? He's like, well, I'll let Daniel update you. And I'm like, well, I just talked to Daniel. So what do you know? Like what's going on that I don't know? And he was like, well, just reach back out to Daniel. I was like, okay. So I'm reaching out, trying to get.

back on Daniel's schedule, just like, hey, like, what's going on? I met with Sam. He said, you know, there is there something that we need to talk about. And so Daniel kept saying, you know, I'm busy. Let's try next week. And so our schedules just kind of get kept getting pushed back. So I later learned that Daniel had came over and talked to our client. And usually you don't come and talk to the client without talking to the lead to let you know when I'm coming to talk to the client.

And so I'm like, Hey, Daniel, I seen you came over and talked to the client. Like, what's the deal? Like, what was that about? And he's like, we'll talk. We'll talk. You know, so fast forward probably a month after, ⁓ it was another Friday and he announced that this young lady, this was going to be her last day on the team. And usually you'll do that in advance so that we can get somebody else in a backfield and all this. And so I was a little annoyed, like, well,

Daniel like, why wouldn't you talk to me earlier to let me know that we're losing somebody from the team, whatever, whatever. He's like, well, we'll catch up. We'll talk. So fast forward probably another two weeks later. So about six weeks later, after my original conversation with Daniel, he, you know, we sitting around, we're talking and it wasn't even formal. It was very informal. And he makes me aware that this young lady had submitted a formal complaint about me for bullying.

And he said, but you we knew that it was unfounded. He said, once we talk with you and we talked to the client, we talked to the other team members. And I was just devastated because my ministry, my nonprofit Girl From Therapy is all about uplifting and empowering women. And so I was just so devastated and so hurt, but I was even more just saddened by as he was saying, he was like, yeah, I was like, well, bullying, like, what are you talking about? Like what happened? Like what were her complaints?

He literally was like she said that you were jealous of her because she was younger you're jealous of her because the client liked you more or liked her more and you were jealous of her because ⁓ She knew more than you and she felt sorry for my kids

Dr. Lydia Bullock (18:17)

Is this?

Erin Braxton (18:18)

The who ⁓ you were talking about the Whitney Houston special with.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (18:23)

Yes, the same exact girl. And I was so devastated because I'm like, first of all, we have a relationship. So if you felt like I was making you feel any kind of way, like I was very light, like, you know, have that conversation with me. But I appreciate hindsight being 20 20. I appreciate how they handled it because I continue to be, you know, really kind with her. And like we continue to treat her the same way we continue to interact.

And interestingly, ⁓ when she the last day that she left, which was that Friday, we had our very last meeting and it was like right before that meeting that Dave told me everything that was going on. So I found myself sitting in that meeting. I was so annoyed with her. ⁓ And I just I couldn't even talk to her or say anything. And she kind of, you know, casually announced, yeah, today is my last day. And I just, you know, kind of sat there, stone faced and.

you know, and that was it. So I never had a conversation with her after that, never had an opportunity to talk with her, but I was so devastated. I told everybody that I could tell this story to, was just like, well, you believe, you know, that this is happening. ⁓ But, you know, I'm not going to get into the lessons, Erin, unless you want me to directly, or if you want to, know, kind of move on. But that was the, that was a really disheartening situation that I had in the workplace with another black woman.

Erin Braxton (19:41)

My first response to this, though, is...

With your background, your expertise and all of the things, what do you think it was? Like, do you think it was that whole scarcity mindset? Do you think it was the competitive? What do you think it was?

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (20:03)

Honestly, I think that there is this idea that we're supposed to be in conflict with one another. if someone is, and I'm always, like, I don't want to sound like, I'm just so nice, but I'm just really an easygoing kind of person in the workplace. And a lot of people don't trust that. Like, if I'm just like, you know, hey, how was your weekend? It's like, why does she ask me how my weekend is? What is she up to? Why does she want to know? Like, is that kind of energy? ⁓ And I experienced it and I just kind of like, no, seriously, I'm just...

How was your weekend? So I think in her mind, she felt like that this was the norm and this is how it's supposed to be, that we're supposed to be in conflict with one another. idea that, she, the fact that you would go to leadership with a formal complaint and the basis of your complaint is that I'm jealous of you because you're younger, because you're smarter, and because the client likes you more is crazy to me.

Because I mean, it's just like that. If you're going to complain about something, you know, at that level, the immaturity is to think that those things are grounds for a formal complaint. And I think that was for me, the real disconnect. on one hand, I felt sorry that that's all you have. And on the second hand, I felt bad. Like, are you kidding me? Like you're really going to, you know, but I'm grateful that.

Like I said, the way that my company handled it, I'm really grateful that I didn't know what was going on. And in fact, when they went to my client and talked to him, because he had a team before us that was really like, didn't tell him anything, like they really controlled the environment, but we were very collaborative and he really appreciated me being very collaborative and making sure that he was knowledgeable of what was going on, make sure that he had some say so like my dynamic and my work.

role with the client was just stellar. And in fact, when Daniel went to the client to say, Hey, how are things going? And he asked them, if you had to lose somebody, like, you know, he was like, I don't care who it is, as long as it's not Kwanza. So he was very much satisfied with the support that we were providing under my leadership and the relationship and rapport that we was able to build with him. He was very satisfied with that.

Erin Braxton (22:30)

interested though, ⁓ in what you said when people don't believe that you're easygoing and when you come in to work and you're just like, hi, how's your weekend? I see you nodding, Dr. Bullock. ⁓ I'm interested in that comment. Dr. Bullock, what do have to say?

Dr. Lydia Bullock (22:47)

So I was smiling because I'm going through that right now. ⁓ I have been in my current position for about two years now. And when I tell you all I've had to prove myself to be like a worthy black woman to other black women, it is very interesting. Similar to Dr. Faleika.

Walk in I speak to everybody. I ask people how their weekends are, you know, do you have any trips planned and It's interesting because they have you know, they have conversation with me But then it comes back to me about how they really feel about me and I'm just as genuine I don't have any ill intent. I Literally I care about people like I'm a lover of people so I will talk to anybody who talked to me So it is interesting because also

I work on the executive level and it's typically people who are mid level or entry level who trick me this way and I'm it's interesting because I'm used to most people at the executive level really ignoring middle level people entry level people but I make him I will talk to the janitor I will talk to the receptionist I will talk to anybody right because I just want people to feel seen but when I do it's a black women it's almost like I have to prove myself to

them that I'm just as black as they are, just because I'm at an executive level and they are not.

Erin Braxton (24:13)

Now, I wanted to get into this conversation and it's going to go the way it's going to go. We're going to probably zigzag all over the place, okay? I wanted to talk about this because I asked this question and I raised this question when I did my why black women need to stop policing each other and why black women are so mean to each other. And I said something in that video to the fact that when you see another black woman who's in a more senior position than you, right?

you, do you automatically just assume that she thinks she's all that or that she you can't talk to her because she's in that position and maybe you're not instead of looking at that as an opportunity to find a mentor, find support in the organization. So I'm just curious about what you guys feel about that and then we'll get back to the coffee no cream moments because you know I get that you think you're all that you think you're better than you know and it's so

ignorant to me. It's like you could have said literally nothing out of your mouth, but we all know what the thought is. I just wanted to take a minute to ask you to please like, please share, and please subscribe to the podcast. Our growth over the past few months has been so amazing. It means so much to me, and all the love that you guys have been showing me is everything. It just confirms what I already

thought I knew, but I now definitely know this community is needed. Black women need to have a safe space to discuss what it is we're going through, what it is we need to be successful and move positively through our work careers, through our professional careers, our entrepreneurial journeys, all of the things. So definitely please like, please share, subscribe. Also, if you want to continue the conversation in a safe space that

is curated just for Black women. We check. We check. I have a group over on Facebook that is private. We check to make sure that you are who you say you are. And we continue these conversations. So it's a place that's safe. The link is below. So definitely hop over there. Join us so we can continue the conversation there as well. That's it. So back to the episode. Maybe Dr. Flaker can explain. I don't know.

I'm still educating myself on why it is this way.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (26:46)

Like a hundred percent, Dr. Bullock. And being in leadership as well, just like you said, I want people to know that I see you. Like I don't think myself highly, higher than anybody else or any of that. Like I am here as representation and I want to be a safe space and I want to be someone that's personable and all these things. But for whatever reason, it becomes this sense of

I think Erin, you said like about policing each other. Now, I wanted to, tried to take a step back as I was thinking about my situation and I think that there was some level of policing from my standpoint and maybe that's what was so off putting for her. I like to be organized and structured and I think that, you know, when black women in particular, I kind of feel like, like I want to support them and being successful.

And so maybe that could be, you know, is what came off too much for her. ⁓ I know that I can be, you know, really organized and I like to be structured and I do that identity politics. I think I show up in a certain way. I'm not about to talk rap music with anybody outside of our community. So when I'm sitting in that space in leadership or at the table, ⁓ you are going to get a different level of me. But if I'm talking to my peers, you know, or other black women,

There's some level of slang or, you know, or relaxing, you know, a little more relaxed. Um, but I, I don't know that one. think people feel like black women feel like I, when I come into an environment, I automatically, like you're automatically my competition, regardless of whether you're in a C suite and I'm entry level, like I want to get where you are. You do, I can do it better than you. That was another scenario I was going to share.

When I was on a team and I was leading a team and there was like four of the black women on the team there was constantly this sense of I can do it better than you and The lack of support that was there the you know, the direct undermining that was there was just it was too much ⁓ But I think there is this underlining sense that I have to be in competition with you regardless of what level you're at

Erin Braxton (29:08)

Dr. Lydia Bullock and I have talked about this.

just in passing how you can, and we talked about this when you were on the podcast before about, you know, ⁓ you can put it all the way back to slavery and the reasons that we act the way we do. I'm reading that, I'm making my way through post-traumatic slave syndrome by Dr. Joy DeGruy. So I know she's going to break it down. I'm just not there yet. And I wish I were to add to this and maybe some of the reasonings why that we

but we've been pitted against each other since the beginning. Well, yeah, it's unnecessary, it's just... To make it make sense, that's why it's necessary, to make it make sense. It's so unnecessary. It is unnecessary. you know, I think that we've been... It's still been a very short time where we've been allowed to be in these rooms, where we are...

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (29:47)

unnecessary.

Erin Braxton (30:10)

more than just nurses and teachers, right? Now we've expanded, we're doing everything and you're seeing that more and more and more and more. So we've been conditioned to know that they're only gonna let so many of us in the door anyway, right? So when another one comes in the door, yeah, that's competition. I work with another black girl in an ad agency.

of seven hundred plus people she was there i didn't really know her name was erin too her name was erin too and i wasn't i wasn't like i didn't think she was my competition but i was like damn another erin another black erin and here you know and you do start to think about you know they compare us they you know maybe one plays the game a little bit better we only need one these things start to go through your mind but we can get into that a little bit later i'm gonna move on

To the next coffee no cream moment, I'll let Dr. Lydia Bullock tell us her coffee no cream, or was that part of your coffee no cream with what you're dealing with now at work?

Dr. Lydia Bullock (31:16)

No, actually no.

Right. So the particular instance that I would like to share, it was actually earlier in my career. I had been at this job for about a year. And what happened is I was on vacation. So I was out for a week. It was my birthday. So I took some time away from the office. And upon my arrival back into the office, when I got back, I had won an award. So in our division,

we have, well we had ⁓ award ceremonies every year to celebrate the accomplishments in the division. And let me just by preference, state and at this time I was working in education at a higher education institution. And we worked in the Department of Student Development, which was a humongous division because we supported disability service, student activities, housing and residence life, counseling and student services. Huge division.

So when I got back, I was presented this award that I had missed when I was away on vacation. So ⁓ in our office, ⁓ we have like a communal area where we had couches and chairs. So when I got back, we were all standing in that space. And they, you know, gave me a warm welcome when I got back and presented me the award. And when, you know, it calmed down and we were just kind of chit chatting in our own spaces.

the other black girl in the office, she stated this loud that made everybody kind of come back to into one conversation and stated, well, I don't need an award to know that I'm doing a good job. Like I don't need to be recognized for that. ⁓ And everybody was just kind of like, and let me also state that in this space, it was just her and I, were the only two black women. Everybody else was white. So.

It got, of course, it turned extremely awkward and she was just like, yeah, we all do good work. I just don't need to be recognized for anything.

And that was the instance that she did in front of everybody, right? But there had been so many other times where she had kind of, you know, wanted to uplift herself up and would put me down in the same space, right? And she would just make little comments like, well, I don't know why everybody come talk to you. I, you know, I have stuff to say to or I don't need nobody to talk to me in this office because my office was literally right in the front. Receptionist desk, my office, another office.

and hers was around the corner. So she just couldn't understand why everybody would talk to me, but my office is right there. I was right in the front. And I'm about to touch on that as well.

Erin Braxton (34:07)

That's it, man.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (34:12)

She also just wasn't nice. She was kind of like a mean girl to everybody. To white people, black people. And she wasn't welcoming. She would always have attitudes like in our staff meetings and things like that. ⁓ Even my supervisor at the time, she, they bumped heads all the time. All the time.

And my supervisor, me and her, were pretty close. So it drove a wedge there. But what was interesting is I would always empower even a black girl on how to come to the supervisor because I did have a stronger relationship with her. So I tried to coach her through that. Right. Well, maybe you should take it from this lens or maybe you should address it this way. Right. But she would always give the supervisor attitude. And let me just say the supervisor, she was

I'm pretty sure she was pretty anti-black, But because I had a good attitude, ⁓ she favored my personality. I won't say she favored who I was as a black woman, but she just enjoyed Lydia's personality. She enjoyed who I was. She didn't enjoy black people, right? So I feel like even that wedge that the other black girl in my supervisor had, it was because of my supervisor's view on black people, right? ⁓

So the girl having issues with my supervisor, I could understand why because my supervisor did not treat her well either. So both of them created a negative dynamic with each other. But going back to the award thing when she did that in front of people.

I have to be so transparent. My feelings were so crushed. They were so hurt. I'm a sensitive girl anyway. So my feelings were so hurt. I remember going into my office after that happened and I did cry. I cried. Because I could not understand why she did that. Why she, number one, why she did it, but why she did it in front of white people. Because it further proved, honestly, the stereotypes. It proved the point. Like it literally proved everything that they have tried years and years.

years and going back to your comment earlier Aaron about slavery it proved that theory like it proved that that you you have caused or you have like given in to the the the systematic like oppression of black women being against each other that's oppression right and she she literally fed into the systematic stereotype

So going back to my I was just so sad like I literally cried because I'm just like I will be so happy for her when anything will happen and at the time when we worked together she had gotten proposed to her and her husband had bought a house. Good things, so many good things was happening in her life and when I tell you I was always the first one to praise her like my goodness I cannot wait you know to celebrate you I can't wait to you know

You know, I would buy her gifts like I did everything like it was nothing that I did for her to treat me that way. I could not understand that I couldn't but I will state this and I'm a person that you know, if I'm gonna call out something on somebody else, I'm gonna call out something on myself as well. So me growing up I have to be honest. I was a jealous girl. I envied a lot of people. I grew up as a fat girl. I grew up as a dark skinned girl. I grew up not being the smartest, right?

So I envy a lot of my friends who were smarter who the boys would you know go after because me and then go after me They did and like the little boys they didn't go after me in the sandbox So they did it they did it so I envy a lot of people growing up But it wasn't until I came in to as a young adult that I said I no longer want to be this way I don't want to be jealous of anybody right so I had to do that internal work for myself right then I think this was

was lacking with a lot of black women. It's just literally self discovery. Do the work to figure out why you act that way. Right? I broke it down. I broke myself down, me and God, and therapy. We broke Lydia down. Right? So when that girl treated me like that, I was able to sense that insecurity in her because I've been there before. I was able to sense that spirit of jealousy in her because I had been there.

I know how to call it out because I'm so aware of it. I'm so aware of it that I never want to be there ever again in my life. Right? I...

Erin Braxton (38:50)

love.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (38:53)

It's almost a part of me. sympathize with her even when my feelings was hurt. I sympathize with her because I know how that feels to feel like, well, I nobody ever recognized me for my work. Nobody ever sees me. I sympathize with her because I've been there. But at the same time, I couldn't negate my feelings. So why would you do it in front of white people?

Why would you do that to me when I've always supported you? So it just, it was a whole thing. My feelings were so hurt, but even after that, even after that, I never. ⁓

I never confronted her about it because she wouldn't have gotten it. And I just, it's almost like, you I didn't want to waste my time. I didn't want to pour out my feelings for my feelings to, you know, still be hurt or hurt even more. But I pray and I ask God to help me to forgive her. So I didn't treat her derogatory in front of the other white people because I didn't want them to see that my feelings was hurt by what she said. I didn't want to see that I was treating her different by what she said. Right. So I still had to go do the internal work in me for

something that she did to me, right? Because I did want people to see that. So I didn't really approach her or say anything. I just did the, you know, I went in my prayer closet, me and God handled it. ⁓ But it just goes to show that competition is a real thing. Erin knows this because we talk about this in the gym.

I'm not a competitive person. I don't care. I'm competitive. Very. And I have to tell them all the time, like y'all, it's me versus me in here. I'm barely, I'm struggling. I'm struggling. I can't compete against y'all because I'm competing against myself. That's such a great putting on a double head.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (40:41)

That's such a great point because you don't want you don't recognize how insecurity shows up and then how to respond to it if you're not used to seeing it or being around people. Like I said, I come from a family of women and I just don't even growing up. didn't grow up with it. And if I did like I it just wasn't as pervasive. So you kind of forget that that's a real thing to have the insecurities is a real thing.

⁓ But then like you, Dr. Bullock, like the competition thing is like, why? Like I'm just trying to, like you said, I'm just trying be better than I was yesterday. Like it's me versus me all the time. You know, I'm my biggest critic. I'm my biggest, you know, all the things like, ⁓ so when you get that from somebody else, especially in such a beautiful moment. So congratulations on your award. Like in such a beautiful moment.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (41:33)

years ago.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (41:38)

in

such a moment like just be supportive you know just be support don't say anything like i would rather you not say anything even though that's weird too right just say congratulations well done go girl or something you know

Erin Braxton (41:51)

Even if you even if I feel you feel the envy Still say it like you know what I'm saying I think the difference is because I I appreciate you for being so honest and open about where you were Dr. Bullock it's seriously because we've all felt that and I was telling dr. Bullock how I recently

broke up with a friend who black girl who did the most mean thing to me. was just like so mean to me and it really hurt my feelings to the point of tears like I just it did and you know you go through this stuff when you're younger but you know I think it's really painful when we're older we're like super grown women and they're still able to hurt you like that and do do that to you and you're like

It is because of insecurities. It is because they haven't done the internal work, don't care to do the internal work, don't want to do the internal work. Yeah, I had a girl say she was unsubscribing because I made comment about people having a problem with the way I talk. I talk like a white girl and me and my guests and I had said, well, you know, my comeback is well,

Okay, I made money off of that. While you're making jokes, I've done voiceover work and I guess this pissed this woman off because she said she was unsubscribing and, ⁓ you know, she didn't have to whine about, you know, not being accepted by white people and something about she didn't care about something about talking in a way that's pleasing to the oppressor. I mean, she thought she was really reading me, you know, and

Dr. Lydia Bullock (43:16)

So.

Erin Braxton (43:41)

It's insecurity. It's like, okay, I've triggered you now. I've triggered you. And because of the comments that come through so many times about the way me or somebody I have on talk, we talk like white girls, da da da da, trigger, trigger. Like, why are you insecure about that?

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (43:56)

And what does that mean? You talk like a white girl. mean, I get that.

Erin Braxton (43:59)

Well, we know what it means.

But I don't know. And Natasha had a really good, you had a good explanation of this about the whole white man lover comment that you said on your episode. I mean, you could just say it now, but you said when people, because she's got it in England as well, because, you know, there's.

Natasha Williams (44:22)

I get it a lot. I get it a lot. And I think it's because I had to get rid of my accent because it was just so bad. Nobody could understand me in London when I went to school. And so, ⁓ like I said on the podcast, my ⁓ uncle gave me a video of the Queen and Margaret Thatcher. So that was our previous prime minister. And hi to...

and speak like them so that I could become a lot more clearer but I get it all the time that ⁓ you're into white people ⁓ and I saying well I've only got black friends you know but a lot of the times people don't really believe me about that in the workplace if I'm because I've worked in senior management ⁓ it's because

they like you because you speak like that. Oh, you're you've got that position because of your voice. No, it's because of my education and my experience, you know, and like everyone says, it's the competition between all of us. And I'm not a competitive person. I cannot be bothered with competitiveness. I grew up in a family with a lot of women.

and they were always competing against each other. And I just didn't understand it. I didn't understand what the point was because the thing is that we've all got different skills, we've all got different gifts. you know, we've got to work with those gifts, we've got to work in areas that we feel comfortable.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (46:12)

That's interesting, I'm sorry, I say that's interesting because when you said you grew up in a family of women, you know, I share that I grew up in a family of women as well. But you said that your experience was that they were in competition with each other. That's really interesting because mine was they just were not so supportive of each other through the generations. It's just.

Natasha Williams (46:34)

Yeah, all the cousins pitted against each other. ⁓ I'm darker than most of my cousins, darker than all of my family. You're not going to get a job because ⁓ or you're not going to be very high in your career because you're dark skinned. Look at your cousin, your cousin's light skinned. Look at this one. What is this one doing?

You know, it was all competition between all of us and I just pulled back. I'm not interested in competition. We were not supportive women and the way I found it in my family is the same way it was in the workplace as well. So we were well, I wasn't in competition and because I'm laid back like both of you actually like, well, not competitive like you Erin.

Erin Braxton (47:26)

I'm with other black women. If Lydia's lifting 60 pounds, I need to lift 60 at least. But I'm not competitive with

Natasha Williams (47:38)

You're so like

that!

Erin Braxton (47:41)

Not with like other women, because you know, I found that if you just do you, I am such a ⁓ nerd and a geek, you my business is the rebel geek. really geek out on stuff. Nobody cares about the stuff I'm interested in. But if I just lean into me, so yes, I'm competitive, OK. ⁓

out here, ⁓

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (48:10)

Yeah.

Natasha Williams (48:12)

I

don't to waste time because the thing is that I can't do, like my sister's brilliant at sort of policy writing. I don't give, you know, I don't care about that, you know, and I'm talking about IT all day, buildings and things like that. And she's like, I don't want to talk about buildings, you know. But yeah, so we're all different. So just embrace that. ⁓

Yeah, I just find that we need to embrace that. But I think every time I go into a senior role and there's a person lower than myself in the role and I'm trying to speak to them, they think I'm not being a genuine person and they don't want to talk to me. One of the last jobs I was in, I started speaking to the cleaner, she turned her back to me because obviously only, I think there was about 250

employees that I was the only black lady, black person in senior management and she just turned her back to me, she didn't want to speak to me.

Erin Braxton (49:18)

Wow. Wow. I don't even know what to say about that. At least you could talk to the... I don't even know what to say about that.

Natasha Williams (49:21)

Yeah.

I came in early, I was like, hi, it's so good to see you. How was your weekend? Turned around and started washing the dishes. I'm sorry, I'm okay. Then I tried three times. I will only give you three chances. ⁓

Erin Braxton (49:46)

more than I would have given her.

Natasha Williams (49:52)

yeah but I do I give three chances and after that I'm just done

Erin Braxton (49:57)

Yeah. Okay. Natasha, tell us is you have another coffee no cream moment. I'm sure so you can tell us your

Natasha Williams (50:06)

Yeah, so when I was working as a director of surveying, building, surveying, I employed this black lady. I was so excited to see her ⁓ actually when she came for interviews. So she had worked 20 years in ⁓ local government. And to be honest, I just thought, you've worked in local government, I'm not quite sure if you're good for... ⁓

If you worked in the public sector, I'm not quite sure whether I should employ you in the private sector because we work a lot harder. But anyway, went through the interview, I hired her. And because she had 20 years of experience in building surveillance, so she said, I did all her references. She started working for me. And within three months, when everybody started moving into their properties, we got

We had a week where we got 10 complaints where she had missed things on the building.

So I had to go out to every property with her, meet up with her, go out to every property and just look at the details of everything she had put down in the survey and everything that the person was complaining about. So a majority of them I managed to rectify, but there was one that cost us, I think it was about 15,000 pounds.

because she had made such a massive mistake on that and we had to pay the client 15,000 because she had missed a major issue in the roof space. that, I mean, when I walked into the house, I nearly started crying because they had children and I was thinking they could have, that the back of the building could have collapsed. So I sat her down and I said to her, do you know what?

I can't take your employment any further but what I can do, I can train you myself up to building surveying standards. It's clear to me that this hasn't been your field because there's so many areas within surveying anyway so you may have the qualification but you haven't done the specific job that we've done.

So I offered to train her, I offered to pay for the qualification, everything. And this woman turned on me, said I was a B-I-T-C-H. She called me all sorts of names. Said I'm wicked. She went to ⁓ my business partner, started speaking to him.

How do you work with this woman? She tried to take me to court ⁓ to say that ⁓ I dismissed her on false grounds. ⁓ The complaints kept coming. In the end, it was about 26 complaints that we had that I had to rectify. And I was just trying to say to her, I'm really trying to help you. ⁓

I'm trying to get you to the next level. You know, you could become a top person in this field because there's only two of us in Birmingham. You know, so two black women doing building surveying in Birmingham. If she went to a job, they thought it was me. If I went to a job, they thought it was her. is how we had the whole of the West Midlands that we were doing surveying.

She could have really made something out of her career. I was, I think I was upset for months. That took me ages to get over. I couldn't believe the way she treated me after that. She started to defame me, put things all over the internet. ⁓ don't work for this woman. She's outrageous. She said, ⁓

When you come in in the morning and you ask us if we're okay, I know it's not real, you're not a real person. I was like, oh my God. Yeah, it was bad. Yeah, it took me months to get over that.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (54:47)

I think it's hard when it becomes personal too. You know, it's like, it's okay if we don't do business the same way, but when it becomes personal and you're calling names and that's just too much.

Natasha Williams (55:02)

But thought, you know, I cannot lower the standard for you just because you're a black woman. That's it. I cannot allow you to get away with this because we've got an obligation to our clients to do the best survey for them. And it was constantly like she felt it was like a personal attack when I was trying to explain to her.

I ever said to her at one point, if this was a white company, would you have treated that person the same way? Would you have said to them, look, you're going to have to keep me on because I've done nothing wrong? You wouldn't. But because we're black women working together, you think I'm supposed to lower the standard for you. It doesn't matter what you do. You're supposed to ⁓ stay here and get the same pay or whatever.

I mean, no, I need somebody that is competent enough to do the job.

Erin Braxton (56:06)

There's like a level of familiarity that we're supposed to just...

that we have with each other or we expect to have with each other on like all levels. like ⁓ with you, Dr. Kwanza, when you said, you know, the girl was coming in late, would she have done that under the leadership of a white man? You know, he would have probably just gotten rid of her.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (56:33)

100 %

Erin Braxton (56:35)

But you, you know, kept trying to support her, kept trying to cover her for her. And then she, you know, stabbed you in the back and went and reported you off to, ⁓ you know, H.R. And same with you, Dr. Lydia. Would that girl have said that if the white person would have won the award? And you, Natasha, you know, it's like, would she have gone online to smear you like that? It's like

You're so comfortable. It's like when we're wrong, we're wrong, right? It's just like the level of our, we have an inability to take accountability, I think, for our own behaviors. And it's not kissing up to the white man. You're like in each of the situations, like we're all just trying to like support you. Listen, I'm just trying to let you know, like you said.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (57:31)

You

Erin Braxton (57:32)

do this or I'm just trying to let you be on time or hey I can train you up you know and then we're still so angry that we would we would we just take it too far right we just try to hurt each other so badly and I do think that's rooted in slavery I can't speak to it intelligently enough but I'm gonna find out we've been brainwashed in so many ways we've been brainwashed even

the way we are, our colorism and all of the things that we're dealing with, we've been so brainwashed. I think it's definitely rooted in that.

Natasha Williams (58:11)

Peace.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (58:11)

because when you think about like

a white person tokenizing a black woman or just a black person in general, right? They tokenize you because of a gift or a talent or something that you can add on to make them successful. And if another person comes along, they feel like well, only one of y'all can make it. I only want one of the gifts or the talents that you all offer, not both of you. So what they put out in turn make us clash and come against each other.

because they only want one of us to win, not all of us. They don't want us to share, they want us to gatekeep everything that they provide for us. They don't want everybody to have access to what they know. Like they basically want to own their one black person. all of us, they want to own one of us.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (58:49)

and

i would

I really have to study that because I wonder if it's our mindset. It's almost like what came first a chicken or an egg, right? Do we think that that's the idea or is that really the idea? Like, do we think that, this is how white people want to see us, therefore this is how we show up or do we show up that way because we think that this is how white people, does that make sense?

Like I feel like a part of it is just our own internalization and then we projecting that and not necessarily that being dictated from somewhere else. And like I said, maybe I need to do more research on that. ⁓ But I just, I don't know.

Natasha Williams (59:49)

I think it's the way we show up. A lot of us show up with so many unhealed wounds, things that we've experienced at home, things that our parents have told us, our grandparents, our brothers, sisters, the community, and we're carrying all this into the workplace. And this is what I'm finding in my research that

Sometimes we just can't even do the work in peace. I mean, this week, ⁓ actually, I put something on LinkedIn and these white guys jumped into the feed and started saying that DEI doesn't work and all these sorts of things. And there's a lot of people out there watching this saying, yeah, DEI doesn't work because we're just hiring.

one or two people to do that job. Are we even sure that they've got the qualifications to do that work? You know, but even in my research, I see that most of the women that have come through have doctorates, you see, overqualified, ⁓ experienced, and people are still out there saying, ⁓ they're not qualified enough. They haven't got enough experience. It's just a DEI.

higher. And we are believing this information as it's coming down the line. And we're competing for the power of the person, usually the person that owns the company, the white man who's at the top, and saying, that person is going to look at me as a special person to get to the top. And that is our attitude with how the workplace works. And that's how I'm seeing it right now.

Erin Braxton (1:01:38)

I think it's a combination of things. More than one thing could be true at the same time. We haven't done the work, we haven't done the healing, a lot of us have not. But a lot of us, this stuff is, they say it's embedded in our DNA. From hundreds of years of being oppressed and certain things become embedded in you. Like I was reading about how... ⁓

there's a reason why black mothers aren't as complimentary and uplifting of their children, right? So I don't know if you guys have ever heard this. ⁓ when we were slaves in slavery, you'd have a child say you had a daughter.

you're trying to protect your daughter from getting raped. You're trying to protect your daughter from getting ⁓ sold or your son from getting sold. So in the master, somebody comes up and comments on, ⁓ your son, that baby looks so great. That baby looks so good. Instead of saying, thank you. Yeah, yeah, he's a fine boy. You don't say that. You say, ⁓ no, he's nothing. He's not anything because you're trying to protect him from.

or your daughter from getting raped, from getting sold. So, you know, I mean, I don't know how you guys as mothers are. Kwanza sounds like she had a wonderful, very positive. I mean, my mom was wonderful and positive, I guess, in a way, too. But I can see some of that in my grandmother and in my mother that where it's just like, don't get a big head. You know what I'm saying? It's like. So I can see how certain things affect us from

years and generations and generations, it's a protection mechanism. It's what they do to protect you. So some people have worked themselves out of that. All of us didn't have the same. You know, we don't have the same history and slavery as somebody else, their ancestry, because maybe their family was out of it earlier. You know, if you're from Philadelphia, you guys are northern. You know, my family, all we're all from Mississippi.

very different experience. So perhaps that has something to do with it. ⁓

Dr. Lydia Bullock (1:03:53)

They too, Eric. Thinking about the diaspora and thinking about the definitions, and I won't get too deep into it, going back to slavery, what they classified as the house Negro and even the field Negro, right? And I guess the conversation behind that, you know what I mean? Like the house Negro having more privileges than somebody who were out in the field.

And I can only think about that in relation to like the 21st century because it's almost like if you are in the house you have a closer access to the power, right? And if you're in the field you're so far away. ⁓ And that drives again that wedge, that comparison, right?

Exactly. And even going back to what you were saying about the protection and like being from the north or the south like a free slave from a slave who was you know, still in the fields, right?

It's just a comparison. Like we're both black but you have a different experience than me. So now we have to compete against each other because our experiences are different. And I think that's when we have to break down that stereotype. Like we can both come from two different backgrounds and still be successful. Even if you were free before me or even if you got a promotion before me, right?

we can still say that we are both successful in our own experience instead of having to compete the success of what the success may look like. Which just goes back to another thing that, you know, even success, that looks different for everybody. So we can't compete about, you know, ⁓ well, I'm, you know, made it here first or I did this first or I got this promotion and you didn't get this, right? It's just the timeline, like.

It doesn't, it shouldn't matter, we, you know, put that as such a major concept of what we describe as success.

Erin Braxton (1:05:51)

Hey guys, so this concludes part one of the first part of my make it make sense series where we explore black women's relationships with each other in the workplace. Now, I was just upstairs editing and there's just no way. There's no way. The episode went well over two hours and I don't want to cut it. I don't want you guys to miss any of the conversation.

There was just so much goodness and great conversation. So I'm splitting it up into two weeks. So I will be back next week with part two of this episode. So you guys don't have to worry about that. ⁓ Yeah, my conversation with Dr. Kwanza, Filaka, with Dr. Lydia Bullock, with Natasha Williams was just that good. And we had a lot to cover and there's still more to cover. So.

That's why we're going into two episodes, so we'll see you next week with those three amazing women. And let me see, ⁓ tomorrow I'm going live. ⁓ The third Thursday of every month I've decided I'm going live on YouTube. So I will also see you tomorrow. And if you are watching this after Thursday, just go back on the channel and catch the live on a replay. All right?

So with that said guys, I will see you in the next video.