Dr.  Mel (00:00)

relational aggression, if done correctly, will shake you. It'll shake your confidence. It'll shake your steadiness, right? It'll have you doubting yourself. And that's what some white women want black women to experience. I'm gonna break you down emotionally. I'm gonna break you down psychologically because that's the only tool or weapon that I have. You've gotta blend in, because you know you're gonna be the only little black girl.

in that classroom and the minute you open your mouth, you say too much, you whatever, they're going to notice you and they're gonna figure out a way to get you out of there. You've literally been taught not to use your voice.

Erin Braxton (00:48)

Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee No Cream podcast. My name is Erin Braxton and I am the host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, we are unapologetically dedicated to black women and we share what I like to call Coffee No Cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in business and in life just because we are black women. Today I have clinical psychologist, Dr. Mel Robinson Brown. She is a great personality, super duper fun, been wanting to get

someone in the mental health space for a while and Dr. Mel does not disappoint. We talked about all the things. We talked about black women and white women relations and why there seems to be some issues there. We talked about black women with other black women. We talked about how to check yourself to make sure that you are the supporting, ⁓ uplifting black woman that we know you want to be.

We just had a great conversation. Stay around and watch this one. You want to watch it to the end because we get into it. Before we get into it though, guys, I want to ask that you please like, please share, please subscribe. We have a Facebook group. The link is below in the description and the show notes if you're watching on or listening on Spotify. ⁓ I'm going to ask you guys to leave me comments. Talk to me. Tell me what you think. Tell me what you like, what you don't like, what you'd like to see more of.

all of the things. We also have that free educational resource, Coffee No Cream dot com forward slash free. We've got almost 2000 free courses from Ivy Leagues, from schools and institutions all over the place that you can get just free by going to Coffee No Cream dot com forward slash free. And I think that's it. So let's get into the episode. So welcome Dr. Mel. How are you today?

Dr.  Mel (02:46)

am doing fabulous. How are you, Erin? ⁓

Erin Braxton (02:49)

I am

really, really good. I'm excited to have you on. I can't wait for my viewers to meet you if they don't know you already. But if they don't know you already, why don't you tell everyone a little bit about you and then we're gonna get into your Coffee No Cream moment.

Dr.  Mel (03:07)

Absolutely. So my name is Melissa Robinson Brown, but I go by Dr. Mel. I'm a licensed clinical psychologist in New York and New Jersey, and I have what's called the SIPAC designation, which means I can work with people via telehealth in over 40 different states, which is a lot of fun. It's actually opened up my practice in this really amazing way. have clients ⁓ in Missouri, in Texas, in Michigan. It's great.

⁓ I am also, so let me talk about who I work with and then I can tell you some other things very quickly. But I work primarily with high achieving women who have checked every box. They're the go-to for everyone, but they feel like something is missing. So that life they built is not feeling so fulfilling. So we talk about what's actually missing, what shoulds do we need to let go of, what are the better boundaries that need to be set.

and what are the relationships you need to develop so that your life can feel more like your own. Yeah, so I'm super excited. That is just, and when you know what you love doing, the people come to you, and that's what I think is amazing. That's the part.

Erin Braxton (04:16)

It's so true. It all starts to work out, right? Well, for those of you who are joining us for the first time here on Coffee No Cream, we share what I like to call Coffee No Cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in business and in life just because we are black. Now, I'm excited to have somebody in the healthcare space finally on Coffee No Cream, but we want to hear Dr. Mel's Coffee No Cream moment first because I'm sure there's going to be a lot.

Dr.  Mel (04:20)

It does, it does.

Erin Braxton (04:45)

Stuff to unpack from it just merely by what you do. So Dr. Mel Please share with us just one because I'm sure you have many of your coffee. No cream moment

Dr.  Mel (04:58)

I think the one that has been pretty ⁓ transformative for me and hasn't left me was when I was at my old job. I had a ⁓ colleague, so a peer there that I felt very uncomfortable with. Every time we would get behind closed doors, she would say something very snarky, very passive aggressive. So I went to my bosses, the time I had like three majority white, one black man, and I said, I don't feel comfortable having conversations with her anymore behind closed doors.

And my white boss looked at me and said, if as an adult, you can't have a civilized conversation with another adult, then we have bigger problems. I later learned, because the students reported her, that this woman was calling me a black bitch, incompetent, ⁓ just there to fill a quota, and telling the students who I was supervising, don't listen to her, because anything she says is not valid.

Erin Braxton (05:56)

Okay, white woman. Okay, mm, okay, okay, wow, all right. So, okay, so the students came back and told you she was calling you an incompetent black bitch, basically.

Dr.  Mel (05:58)

Yes.

Yes.

They reported her because she was not doing her job. And then when the administration started investigating, they revealed that this is what she had been saying about me behind closed doors. So my discomfort was real.

Erin Braxton (06:26)

Okay, okay, so wait a minute. What ended up happening as a result of the investigation?

Dr.  Mel (06:34)

She was dismissed. So in the academic world, they don't fully fire you. They just don't renew your contract. So they allowed her to finish out her contract and then they didn't renew it. But she was done after that.

Erin Braxton (06:52)

So can you expound a little bit and tell us kind of what was going on in these interactions? Tell us what kind of things were happening so we can get a better understanding.

Dr.  Mel (07:07)

Sure. So she and I had to meet. I should name the system also knew. I just want to make sure that we named that there were two psychologists on staff. She was clearly senior to me, but when I started, they intentionally did not make her my supervisor. So I reported to somebody else. So they knew that she was a problem, but we, when we would have meetings because we were the only two psychologists on staff and there was a training program.

I would say things like, ⁓ what interns and externs am I meeting with? Am I supervising? Why do you think you would supervise any of the interns? I mean, you could have an extern. So let me tell you the difference between an extern and an intern, right? An intern is somebody who is pre-doctoral. They're about to get their license. They have one year of training left. An extern is very new. They're probably like a second year student, right?

So she was like, she kind of was like very flippant. You could have a next turn, but there's no reason for you to interact with the interns. But I have to, because that's what the accrediting board says needs to happen more than one psychologist has to sit with you. And she would say things like that to me. And then when I would bring it to the admin, they'd be like, okay, we need to go talk to her. Or we would be having a conversation and she would talk about testing reports. And I would say,

I can look at, I could take a look at this testing report. I don't think that's something that you should be doing.

Erin Braxton (08:36)

But you didn't report directly into her.

Dr.  Mel (08:38)

⁓ I did not report directly into her, but I was supposed to be, that was part of my job. My job description were these things. The biggest thing that led to us having a joint meeting that where I, that my boss said to me, I need to be an adult and have an adult conversation is there were two teams in our clinic and each clinician had to be on one of those teams. And then the students were supposed to be evenly distributed.

to the teams. And so I was the leader of one of the teams and then another psychiatrist was a leader of a team. Not her though. Not her, not her because again, they knew. They, she did not let any of the students be on my team. So I asked her one day in the hallway and I said, I don't understand why none of the students are on my team. Usually students are evenly distributed across the two teams.

It's my program. decide where I want my students to go, and I don't want any of the students on your team.

Erin Braxton (09:40)

So you say.

Dr.  Mel (09:43)

So I say, that doesn't make sense to me and you can't just unilaterally do that. I can do what I want, it's my program. I'm not okay with that. Well, you can go tell whoever you want. So this happened in a hallway and then after that happened in a hallway is when we had to have this other meeting. But those were the kinds of things where I was like, I no longer want to sit with you behind closed doors because you're always saying something, you're always questioning my ability.

telling me, well maybe I need to look at your testing reports too. Actually, you don't. I'm independently licensed. I don't need you to look at anything that I do, to be honest.

Erin Braxton (10:21)

So let's talk about the person who told you you needed to be able to have an adult conversation. That was a different supervisor. ⁓

Dr.  Mel (10:31)

I

was the medical director of the clinic.

Erin Braxton (10:34)

Okay, so how did that all wind up? Because I think this is a frustration for a lot of us when you're dealing with something internally. It's basically a he said, she said situation. Everybody all the way around has bias ⁓ or they don't want to deal with it or it's uncomfortable for them or whatever. So what do you say? What do you do when you have a supervisor that just kind of

brushes it under the rug or just basically tells you to deal with it.

Dr.  Mel (11:07)

will say it's incredibly frustrating.

In that room that day, when I, so by the way, I said this thing about needing to have somebody else in the room with me with her present, because we were all in a joint meeting. The response to that was mixed. The medical director was probably the highest level person in that room. And then there was an administrator and then one of my other clinical bosses and the two men. So that's the other thing. It was a white woman and then a white man and a black man. The two men were like, okay, we'll make it possible for you to have

somebody else in the room so you don't have conversations on your own. It was the white woman who made the comment about me needing to be an adult and have adult conversations. And so what do you do when somebody is dismissive? Luckily, my clinical boss, who was the black man, he did a good job of holding space for me. In that meeting though, so he, I guess when I say he held space after that, it,

I needed something or needed to ⁓ process something, he was there. I also had peer support, so I talked to my peers, but quite honestly, I stopped having meetings with her after that. I just, I had to protect myself. So if she asked me for a meeting, I would just say no. If she needed to talk to me about something, it was on an email, and that way I had a paper trail.

So she couldn't just say something to me. But I do think shortly after that is when the investigation with the students started. So I didn't have a lot of window where I just had to deal with her. But it was, it was frustrating. It was, it was also frustrating because instinctually I knew something was wrong. And I think that's what's hard for black women, right? We can know something's wrong to your point, but we don't have any evidence.

And people don't always believe you. The only reason they went after her was because the students complained. It wasn't just because of me. It was because now APA is accrediting our program and APA is going to have an issue with her not doing what she's supposed to do. So now we're going to go after you. But it wasn't just because ⁓ of what she said about me.

Erin Braxton (13:22)

I was literally just talking to somebody about, you know, white men versus white women. Now from a professional standpoint, I find notoriously, well, I don't know. I find a lot of the stories that I'm hearing

The men aren't so much the issue all the time, it's the women. So just from a professional perspective, especially with what you're dealing with, like with mental wellness and all of that, what do you think that's about?

Dr.  Mel (14:07)

What do I think that's about? I wish I actually knew the answer. So I do think there is a competitiveness and a cattiness that happens amongst women. It starts when we're young. It starts when we are, you know, the relational aggression.

that is so common amongst young girls, teenage girls, and that mean girl, right? That mean girl tendency that I think women have and take with them. ⁓ So part of it is that I think the experiences that I've had throughout my life, both personally and professionally where I've had challenges are usually women and it's usually some level of relational aggression that is pointed at me or around me. So I think that's part of it.

⁓ I think women are more likely to be passive aggressive, whereas I think men will have direct conversations in some, in more situations. I've had a better or an, not better, easier, more successful time being able to go to a boss and have a direct conversation about a particular issue, whereas with a woman sometimes it feels like you're dancing around things.

Erin Braxton (15:28)

When you say relational, what'd you say again? Relational. Okay, can you explain what that is?

Dr.  Mel (15:31)

relational aggression.

Sure. It's the gossiping, talking about people behind their back, inviting everybody to an outing except you. ⁓ Having a group chat and either removing you from the group chat or not inviting you to the group chat. ⁓ It's those kinds of things. they're not throwing bows like physical punches, but they're doing things to sort of paint you as the outcast, turning everybody against you.

Like this happens, there's a friend group. now something has happened between you and another friend, and now that friend tries to turn the entire group against you, starts gossiping about you, calling you names behind your back. That's all relational aggression.

Erin Braxton (16:19)

Okay, okay, and I'm just curious, the relational aggression that is exhibited toward black women by white women.

Dr.  Mel (16:31)

is this happening? Why is there relational aggression of white women towards black women? That's the question. you know, there is, I think part of this is if again, if we're thinking that is the tool, that is the weapon that we use more frequently than physical aggression. I'm going to give you a really good example. Okay. My girl Jasmine Crockett.

Mm-hmm. I love her. Mm-hmm. She is amazing She shows up in a space and she will read people for fifth And not only that she's smart because she doesn't just do things off the top of her brain She prepares her statement and puts it in front of her But if you look at the people who are critical of her often white women, right men too They won't they will not talk about what she's saying they will say things like

Erin Braxton (17:09)

Absolutely.

Dr.  Mel (17:30)

They'll call her names. They'll talk about her wig. They'll say, she's reading from a paper. Clearly she's not smart. She's not like, they don't throw bows. They try to go for the jugular. They try to shake you because relational aggression, if done correctly, will shake you. It'll shake your confidence. It'll shake your steadiness, right? It'll have you doubting yourself. And that's what some

white women want black women to experience because they can't really go toe to toe with them. Do you think somebody to go could go toe to toe with Jasmine Crockett? I wouldn't either, girl. I would be like, walk, I'm just not even gonna try.

Erin Braxton (18:08)

I shi-

not going to participate in this sit this one out

Dr.  Mel (18:17)

⁓ I know I know my lane. Yeah, I'm gonna stay in it People don't want to people don't like her voice They don't like how how smart she is that she comes prepared that she will again read you for filth So they try to go for her and shake her confidence shake her steadiness And I think that's what white women will do sometimes to black women because there's no other way to get to them They don't want

black women to prove that they're smarter than them, that they navigate spaces in a different way, that they show up more colorful, that they show up with more confidence. They want to be able to break that down. And I liken it sometimes to that idea that I'm gonna break you down emotionally, I'm gonna break you down psychologically, because that's the only tool or weapon that I have.

Erin Braxton (19:04)

How effective though do you think that is?

Dr.  Mel (19:08)

I mean, I have a lot of black women sitting in my office, struggling with confidence, even though they're the smartest women in the whole room, are struggling with imposter syndrome, even though over time, I'm like, wait, can we just take a moment and look at your resume? And I mean, high up, high up in the company, the highest roles talking about they're gonna figure me out, they're gonna figure out that I don't know what I'm doing.

Erin Braxton (19:10)

Yeah.

Yeah, I was the girl I was mentioning earlier who's talking about somebody who's a subordinate and says things to her and we kind of discussed it. I said, you're suffering from imposter syndrome a little bit, you know, because you're young, because you're in this position, you know, and I said this to her as kind of like an older sister auntie role because it's like sometimes it takes you years to work through this stuff. I mean, like I don't want you.

Dr.  Mel (19:53)

Hmm.

Erin Braxton (20:04)

I wish I would have worked through it a lot sooner because I have been affected by the mind fuckery. I have been affected by the gaslighting and just the little bullshit that they would say. And then you're walking around doubting yourself. know, I've talked about this before on the podcast when I talk about my own story, having like professional self-worth issues. Yeah, I'm like, yeah, I'm smart. Yeah, I'm all these things, right? But.

I think it's because of the way we've been conditioned, you know, and ⁓ I I had ⁓ the authors of the next little black book of success on the podcast. ⁓ I don't know when this will air, but a few weeks ago, right. And I was listening to ⁓ Rhonda Joy McLean was telling a story about how basically her teacher.

made her, and she's going back to Jim Crow, made her apologize to her class when she was a little girl because they went on a field trip and she spoke to another little white kids in another family, but then spoke to the mom, the parents. So the black teacher made her apologize to her class. And this is back in like the 50s or something like that, right?

And are we conditioned to play small? And then that just starts to kind of like eat away at you. So when you get into the workforce and this stuff starts coming at you and you just don't know what to do with it, we're already conditioned sometimes, not everybody, not all black women, but a lot of us, you know, are. So then you get the very high achieving, super smart, ambitious,

black women in your chair, your office, doubting and questioning because, you know, on some level, they do not believe they should be there on some level.

Dr.  Mel (22:17)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's a narrative that I hear all the time.

particularly with my high achieving black women, where when they were young, they were noticeably smart. And so mom, dad, grandma, aunt, whoever raised them, sacrificed all the things to send them to the private school on the other side of town. all their siblings went to the public school in their neighborhood, but because they were the smart one, they went to the private school on the other town. And the messaging was, now, I'm gonna send you to this private school, but you can't stand out.

You've got to blend in because you know you're going to be the only little black girl in that classroom and the minute you open your mouth, you say too much, you whatever, they're going to notice you and they're going to figure out a way to get you out of there. So you've got to be composed. You've got to be the smartest one. You can't be loud. You can't be aggressive and that kind of conditioning stays with you.

How do you when you're young and you're developing a sense of identity? There's no way that that isn't becoming a part of who you are and you learn that it's safety because now you've gotten through these really great private schools and then that led you to the Harvard's and the Yale's and then you're in law school and then right so now you're like well me being the composed steady quiet one is Actually getting me somewhere, right? So I'm going to keep doing that but all the while

You're thinking to yourself, am I supposed to be here? If I speak up, are they're gonna recognize that maybe I'm not supposed to be? Like that just, keep questioning over and over and over again. So you're right, that conditioning starts young and it is a narrative I keep hearing over and over and over again, exact one.

Erin Braxton (24:08)

So what do you, how do you help your clients, patients get through that? know, just, cause it's so common. mean, if I hear it one more time, you know, and for so long, you think, it's just me, but now we're all vocal. We're talking about it. We're out here getting the help, trying to do the work, peel back the layers, figure out what the hell happened, what's going on.

Dr.  Mel (24:34)

Mm-hmm. So you have to, ⁓ you know, I feel pretty fortunate in my life because I'll tell one little story really quickly. When I was a little kid, I was like seventh grade, so I was at a brand new Catholic school. The Catholic school I went to the first time was in my neighborhood. It was very diverse. Then we switched me to a different Catholic school for academic reasons. Like I wanted, my parents wanted to challenge me more and I ended up going to a Catholic school in a very white neighborhood.

And remember playing softball and softball wasn't my jam, so I wasn't great at it, but I liked it. And I was in the outfield and I dropped the ball and the pitcher who was this white girl, when I tell you she laid into me on that field, she yelled, she screamed, she told me that I was the worst. I mean, it was bad and I was humiliated. I walked off the field looking for my dad because my dad was always at every game, every practice. And I was like, my gosh, I can't believe she did that to me. And I was getting ready to cry.

My dad looked at me and said, don't you ever let anybody talk to you like that ever again. He didn't comfort me. He gave me the lesson I needed. And I took that with me. So I bring that up because one of the things I teach my women is that I know you have a voice. We're going to practice using it because that's part of the conditioning. You've literally been taught not to use your voice. And so because you haven't been taught to use your voice, you don't trust it. You trust what you do on paper.

You trust if you can cite the best legal research or talk about, you know, advertising statistics or be in an architecture space and like cite the correct dimensions, but to use your voice, you don't know how to do that, right? That emotional piece of you. And so I am really big on teaching women to use their voice. I'm also really big on helping women heal and tend to that little girl who didn't get to use her voice.

Because she really wanted to. The little girl who went on the other side of town and had to be the composed one and just wanted to have fun and just wanted to make friends, she still needs soothing. So we gotta take care of her too.

Erin Braxton (26:43)

and not use it where I'm just about to cuss you all the way up and down, left and right. And be that type of, have that kind of voice come through. So, I don't know, like, I think it would be beneficial. I mean, I know we're talking in generalities here, but you know, to, you know, black women who,

who went through what you did, you know, like let's use the example that you just gave, you know, when somebody does talk to you sideways crazy, come at you, like they absolutely have no sense, but they are entitled to do so. What do you say?

Dr.  Mel (27:24)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's hard. I'm just going to say, I'm going to name. It's hard because especially when somebody talks at you sideways, you get activated. You get triggered. Instinct is to fight.

Erin Braxton (27:42)

Fight or let them clean out.

Dr.  Mel (27:45)

Yes, but you're fighting with-

Erin Braxton (27:47)

We can't always cuss him out, you know, that's not okay.

Dr.  Mel (27:51)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I meant to pull a Jasmine sometimes, because know Jasmine be cussing them out without cussing. ⁓

Erin Braxton (27:59)

If we're at all not as quick-witted as Jackie, you're like, damn, I should have said that. You know what I'm saying?

Dr.  Mel (28:01)

No, I was one of them.

Yes, and I love that you brought that up because I think that happens to so many of us in the moment. Here's what I want everybody to really hear this. When you get activated to a certain level, your cognitive processing shuts off. So a lot of us go into this space and we're like, I couldn't like I couldn't be quick witted. I couldn't come with the comeback. It's because your cognitive processing shut off when that person called you a bitch or when that person was like.

⁓ well, you don't need to be in this meeting or like one of my bosses told me, I always thought you were the same, you know, level as this, this person who's three years junior to you. Right. ⁓ so then you all get the same salary. It's a line that I'm convoluting that story, but we don't always think quickly because our cognitive processing, we've been activated so high on our threshold that we can't think. So I want us to give ourselves some grace because just because someone said something to you today.

doesn't mean you can't go back to them tomorrow and have some words. And I think we're sometimes afraid. We think, if I miss the moment, I miss the moment. No, you didn't miss the moment. Because what they said is what they said and you need to call them to task. So what I would say is take a deep breath. If you feel ready to cuss somebody out and you know you don't want to, because sometimes we're ready to cuss them out and just leave. ⁓ But if you feel like you're going to cuss somebody out, take a very deep breath.

because that will often bring your nervous system down. And then respond. If you still don't feel like you can respond, it is okay if you have to walk away from that moment and respond tomorrow. You can always send somebody a Slack message, an email, grab them in their office, hey, you have a few minutes. You know, our interaction yesterday has really been sitting with me and I wanted to see if we could talk about it for a minute.

Mm-hmm. Those are ways you can address it And I always say document document document document those moments where somebody says something to you that feels like a microaggression Document the moments where you want to curse somebody out and maybe you don't and you have to go back and talk to them later It's just keeping a log and in that log keep the day and the time and the person you had the interaction with you may never need it But you might

Erin Braxton (30:25)

and you're documenting it for yourself, you're documenting it for HR, what do you?

Dr.  Mel (30:33)

Both. somebody starts, I've had a lot of situations where people talk about a person keeps harassing them or things keep happening in the workplace that are impacting their ability to function, their psychological safety. so, and then HR or a boss will say, well, what are you talking about? Well, I have my documentation. I interacted with this person on this date and this happened.

You just keep a running log. Now, it is your log, but my guess is that other person doesn't have dates and times, and you're more likely to be believed. It's not supposed to be like, three weeks ago we had this conversation. No, Tuesday at 2 p.m. when we were around the water cooler, we had this conversation.

Erin Braxton (31:12)

Thanks

Right. Yeah. And I think that helps you even feel ⁓ being organized in this way, I think does a lot for you mentally. ⁓ So what are some of the tools or what what would you say to women? Because there's a lot of self work that we need to do on ourselves. Because when I say we were conditioned early.

And everybody talks about it, like get a therapist, you need to do the work. You know, you need to the work. And a lot of people, I don't know if they even know what the work means. I don't know if they ⁓ feel like they need to do the work. know? What are you, because I think when we get vulnerable and we're real honest with each other as black women, we're,

honest about how we feel because you could talk to some women and they'll be like, know, I don't care. don't, you know, you do care, right? You do care. Right. And I'm very honest about that. Like I have let all kinds of stuff get all up in my head and affect me. But how do you start to, um, aside from getting a therapist, but just even that self talk that we need to do to our with ourselves to kind of, you know,

work on this conditioning that we have to shrink and to be quiet and not use our voices.

Dr.  Mel (32:57)

Mm-hmm So I always believe in beginning with awareness so just to start to notice We can't really change anything if we don't have data and anecdotal data is Sort of memories sure. It's data, but you can't really Kind of hang your hat on that necessarily so I would say start to notice and start tracking right again. I'm really

I'm really big on just having things to be able to look at and say, okay, over the past four weeks, I noticed there were five times where I wanted to speak up and I didn't, right? Or there were five times where like my partner said something to me and I, didn't feel right, but I just, I just didn't say anything, right? So give yourself a time period. Say, okay, over the next month, I'm just gonna notice. I'm gonna notice times where I don't speak up when I want to. I'm gonna notice times where,

Somebody says a comment to me and it just kind of lands funny I'm gonna notice times where I'm so exhausted that I can't even though I don't I had a great night's rest I still can't get myself out of bed Those kinds of things are giving you information and when you have data you can do something with it So start with that the noticing and the tracking of when you want to use your voice and you don't ⁓ after that

You know, I think that we've been conditioned and so there's a lot of unlearning that people have to do. Tons of unlearning. it starts with understanding.

where you've been conditioned. You've gotta look at what's going on with you historically. Now there will be some people that will sit with you and will say, history doesn't matter. There will be therapists that will say, it's just about what's going on in the present moment. That's not how I believe this works. You have to like look at the values and the beliefs from your parents and how they raised you or your caregivers. All of that is contributing to what's going on with you as an adult and you cannot.

get me to believe anything different. I've been doing this for 20 plus years. It matters. And so you gotta do that historical look and just take a look back. Right? We have a tendency to glamorize things. I had a great childhood.

Erin Braxton (35:03)

Yeah.

Dr.  Mel (35:14)

And then when you look at it, you're like, yeah, my mom wasn't ever there because she was working five jobs. And so she wasn't always emotionally available for me, but we made sure we had everything that we needed. That's amazing. You're not going to knock mom. Your mom was amazing for that. And she didn't emotionally support you. And as a kid, you need that. It's those kinds of things. So.

Erin Braxton (35:34)

Yeah.

Yeah. I think I'm making peace with, you know, those types of things because, you know, I had a great mom too. I mean, was she perfect? No, she's no longer here. can't, I can't, can't tell her about it, you know, but yeah, just acknowledging and making peace with it, you know. Yeah. I think we...

And I'm not here to tell somebody to not hold on to something or to do hold on to something or whatever. I mean, you to get through it. Cause it took me, my therapist had to tell me, that was trauma. What I went through as a little girl, you know, ⁓ with the other little white kids in school. And I was the only one. I never thought about it as trauma, but then, you know, I'm sitting here trying to figure out what is your problem? Why, how do you end up doing a podcast about this? You know I'm saying?

And I'm just like, I have been dealing with this shit since I was five, you know? And it's just like, it was very traumatic. And I have reactions to, and people don't think so, because you know, they'll hear the way I talk and I think, you date white men. you, you, ⁓ thought, know, think everything's perfect. They're just like, no, no, I have very real opinions, you know, just don't get it twisted.

I'm not.

Dr.  Mel (37:02)

Don't make me show you that sign.

Erin Braxton (37:06)

Like people get a lot of things twisted on the way you speak. was raised around white people. This was, mean, as far as my environment, but my parents, super black. Black, they're very, yeah, no, no, no, we weren't confused. We were not confused. no, I think this is a very interesting conversation, because the parents do, they do the best that they can. They do the best that they can.

Not all, I mean there are some people who have some horrible situations, but you know, just because, you know, my parents worked a lot. My mom was not waiting for me at home when I came home. We were alone a lot. Until you just said that, I was just like, you know, and I laugh, Gen X, I'm Gen X, so Gen X laughs all the time about how we just like raised ourselves, we had a latch key, and you just had to deal with stuff yourself. You just had to deal with.

you had to deal with it, you know, great parents did all the things, but you know, they were trying to keep us out there where we were, you know, so, and they had to work harder to do that than our neighbors did. know, so, no, I think that's like a really good perspective. I think a lot of us black women are really, I feel like in a lot of pain, I can just tell by the comments that I received.

whether they're just supportive of the conversation or if they're hateful to me and the guests, you know, just some hateful stuff. Sometimes you're just like, whoa, you are triggered, you know? And a lot of times I used to want to be like, I like the camaraderie. When you first get started, you want

Dr.  Mel (38:47)

Really?

Erin Braxton (39:02)

the comments, you want the conversation. But just based on what it is that we deal with as black women, I just want people to come through and not have to see that. So I've gotten to, I'm like, I'm blocking, you're gone. You know what I'm saying? Because it's like, we go through enough and we don't even realize like some of the stuff that we go through. you know, especially when you feel like it's like another black woman on, you know, I'm like, you are so like,

I just won't, I won't tolerate it because I feel like we deal, we just deal with so much. But yeah, I, I, I feel like we're so, we're just, we're in so much pain, a lot of us. And you can just tell by the way that.

people act up in the comments. I really can't, you know, so.

Dr.  Mel (39:54)

What I think is hard about what you're saying too is this is why I think a lot of black women won't trust and develop friendships and relationships is because you don't necessarily feel protected or safe even amongst women that look like you. And there is an assumption that, ⁓ finally I can be amongst other black women and you get it and you understand it. So it can feel so painful.

Erin Braxton (40:21)

So painful.

Dr.  Mel (40:23)

when you are hurt in that way by another black woman. And so I've heard many people say, I just won't do friends. I'm not going to develop relationships because black women, white women, any woman of any any descent can hurt me and I don't want to be hurt. ⁓

Erin Braxton (40:41)

That's too bad. ⁓ I was having this conversation about as I age, know, my biggest, one of the things I'm really trying not to do is become bitter, right? My friendships, you are very important to me. I have been heartbroken by male friends, by boyfriends, by all the things, you know, so it's, you gotta make an effort to not

become bitter but you know things do happen they're really shitty people who do shitty things and maybe they're not shitty that's the wrong way to look at it i'm just saying that cuz you know when you're hurt and pissed you don't you know that's just that's best i can give you but you know obviously they're operating probably from a place of hurt or pain and i i feel sorry for black women who never find

Dr.  Mel (41:32)

Hmm

Erin Braxton (41:40)

real genuine friendship in other black women. ⁓ Growing up, my mom was very social, very social. I'm very social. ⁓ I always talk about my best friend who came when I was 10, and she was my first real black friend. I mean, I had other black kids I was around, and some of the extracurricular activities my mom had me in. But,

For real, it just was life changing. But I also did a video talking about how mean we can be to each other. And I stressed about doing that video before I recorded it because I was like, ⁓ God, you know, but I've just, like listening and reading some of the comments that people would make. It's just like, girl, something is wrong with you. know, like you need to go figure that one out. And just really trying to

figure out why you're like that. But I really feel sad for black women who are never able to find and I've had comments like that. like I've had comments to just, you know, saying exactly what you just said about friendships. Too bad, you know, because when we are when we are friends or good friends, there is nothing like a black girlfriend. There's just nothing like that. Nothing. And those who

Dr.  Mel (42:53)

Mm-hmm.

Erin Braxton (43:06)

who've cut themselves off or shut themselves down to experience that. And the older you get, it does get more difficult. you I do believe that I'm always like so excited when I make a friend later in life, you know. It's just everything. Just even being able to meet the women that I've been able to meet just doing this podcast. Some I know are going to be friends for a long time.

Dr.  Mel (43:21)

Mm-hmm ⁓

Erin Braxton (43:34)

And I've only been doing this for a year, you know, so I feel so sorry ⁓ for women who aren't able to experience that. But we can, we can hurt each other so bad that I understand.

Dr.  Mel (43:49)

We don't, I don't think that, cause I've, you know, there's so many instances that are standing out to me right now, but I remember when I was in high school, um, I was a good student. I was, um, I was a good student and I was an athlete. And so when I graduated from high school, I got a ton of awards from the state, from the school. And I remember my best friend at the time, I went to get up to get an award. I've never forgotten this and this was 1998. So I just gave my, gave my age away, but whatever. Um,

She said, if you get up one more time, I'm gonna trip you. Now she has said it in jest. She thought she was being funny. But I've had comments like that my entire life, where people think, ha ha funny. But what we're not doing as black women is we're not checking our own insecurities. And that's where that's coming from. Those kinds of comments are coming from a place of insecurity. You see somebody doing something,

Erin Braxton (44:44)

yeah.

Dr.  Mel (44:46)

and somehow it's triggering something in you. It's triggering a not good enough in you. It's triggering, haven't done enough with my life. It's triggering, I'm too far behind, whatever it is. And I wish, I wish we could stop for a moment before we open our mouths and say, ⁓ this is a me thing. This has nothing to do with my friend or this person. I'm not even gonna let that cross my mouth. Maybe I'll talk to them at a different time and not say I'm gonna trip you.

but say, love your success, teach me. What have you been doing to get where you are now? Because it's amazing. Can you imagine if that was the question versus I'm gonna trip you if you get up one more time? I've had people say, why do call yourself Dr. Mel? You need to tell everybody you're a doctor? Yeah bitches, you know how long I went to school for to get this degree?

Erin Braxton (45:37)

Yes, absolutely the level of hate I I feel we sometimes have toward one another because there's a problem that You think I have probably? That I don't have it's it's the way you've projected on to me, you know like

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I see it. I see it in current friendships a little bit. I have a current friendships not gonna say cuz you know but Yeah, people are listening, but I feel it, you know that ⁓ low-key Comparing that low-key, you know competition, you know, I've had some down Moments. Okay. I have been not doing well and then I've

I've recovered, know, so. you know, people still have a problem. But how about and maybe we can end on this. ⁓ If you were to give other black women some ways that they can check themselves because. ⁓ Not because or ways they can check themselves to make sure that.

they're not what we're talking about to make sure that they're loving and supporting and like, ⁓ how do I feel about that? Or do I ever do that? Or do I ever think like that? Do you have anything like that that you could give? ⁓ Because I think honestly, sometimes we're talking right at you. You're watching this right now and you just don't know what you are. You don't want to know, right? Talking to you.

Right? Maybe it's not you, but you're watching. So what are some ways we can check ourselves to make sure that we're not showing that, it what kind of aggression it is. Relational aggression towards other black women. I mean, I can't do anything about these white women, right? But I'm talking to black women because I want us to be better.

Dr.  Mel (47:43)

relational aggression.

Erin Braxton (47:56)

with each other. anything that we need to watch out for that maybe we're not realizing we're doing.

Dr.  Mel (48:05)

You know it goes back to this idea of noticing right so I want you to notice how you're feeling amongst your friends When you're with them when everybody's sitting down and talking about you know the person they're dating ⁓ the job the promotion they just got the You know the grant they just won because they you know have been working on a thing. What is your immediate? Reaction this is a thing you do for yourself. What's your immediate reaction is it here? We go again with this woman, or is it joy?

Because I love my friends and I want to see my friends win. So when my friends announced that they just got promoted, when my friends announced that like, you know, they just bought their, you know, their vacation home, I'm excited for them. Yes. Not only because your come up means we're all coming up, right? But because I love to see you win. If you don't love to see your friends win.

If you're experiencing what we call envy, now there's a difference between envy and jealousy, probably don't have time to get into it, but- We? Right?

Erin Braxton (49:06)

Can you explain? Yeah, please, because I don't think people know.

Dr.  Mel (49:09)

There is a difference between envy and jealousy. Jealousy is about you, your friend, and another person. I'm afraid I'm going to lose you to another person. Same thing with jealousy with a partner. I'm afraid that something's happening that I'm going to lose you. There's a thing about loss. Envy is I wish I had what you had. So I don't think I'm gonna lose you.

Erin Braxton (49:28)

Okay.

Dr.  Mel (49:34)

But I want what you have. wish I had what you have. I'm sad that I, or I'm mad that I don't have what you have. Right? So it's not about losing you. It's about, I want a thing. Whereas jealousy is, think I'm going to lose you. Right? So you can be jealous of the new friend that comes. If you're partnered with somebody and they, let's just say you're partnered with a man and they have a new work wife, you might be jealous. You're going to lose your partner to that work wife. But if it's your friend and they just bought a vacation home and you can say, I'm envious. I want a vacation home.

I don't think I'm going to lose you to that vacation home, but I want it. So if you notice your friends are telling you things, sharing joy with you and you feel envy, you're mad, you're like, ⁓ this woman again, annoyed. That is giving you information about yourself, not your friend. Your friend expects that this is a safe space for her to bring the good, the bad, the ugly, the sideways.

And if you are like, you keep telling me about all your wins and it's annoying, that is about you. It has nothing to do with your friend. Let your friend brag. Who else is she gonna brag to if not to you?

Erin Braxton (50:41)

So then what do they need to do with that information?

Dr.  Mel (50:45)

Go see why they're having the issue. What is it that you're wanting? What isn't that you haven't been acting on that you're not loving? The friend who just went and lost 30 pounds and you're like, that's so great. Have you been wanting to lose 30 pounds? Have you been wanting to try the GLP ones and you don't want to and now your friend has lost 40 pounds and you're like, this bitch thinks she's all that because she lost all this weight.

Good for her. She did what she wanted to do to lose that weight. Why aren't you doing what you want to So you need to when you find that you're feeling that go check and see what is it that you've been wanting to do? You've been working on you've been striving for or not striving for but you wish you were what where is the deficit with you that is making you feel envious or mad at that other person because it's all about you. It's not about them.

Erin Braxton (51:18)

Right. Right.

Dr.  Mel (51:42)

not if they're just sharing their accomplishments with you.

Erin Braxton (51:45)

So true, so true. Well, this has been great. That is some good stuff. I always say, well, somebody told me this. It's like, if something they said is getting to you and whatever triggers you, it's like a mirror being held up to your face and you've got to figure out what about you that is bothered.

You know, why are you bothered by it? It's all about you. It's not about them. But a lot of us don't do these exercises. But fortunately, ⁓ we're becoming, feel, you can tell me, but I believe that, and maybe I think this because my circles are becoming more, but I feel like black women are becoming, black people are becoming more comfortable with the mental health care space. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr.  Mel (52:38)

It's getting better. There's not as much stigma. There's a lot more public speaking. And I think it helps that like the bigger names in the media and celebrities are also very openly talking about their own mental health journeys. And so that then gives people permission.

Erin Braxton (52:53)

Yeah, yeah.

Well, this has been really, really good, Dr. Mel. Dr. Mel, tell us, is there anything you want to share with us? ⁓ You want to tell people, ⁓ anything you want to share, tell us where we can find you, how people can receive services from you since you can work in 40 states. That's amazing.

Dr.  Mel (53:14)

huh. ⁓ so I'm on all socials. spend most of my time on LinkedIn, IG and TikTok, but it's the same handle across the board. I am dr mel. So D R E L. ⁓ you can also, I also have a website. I am dr mel.com. So that lists all the different ways you can work with me, including there's a link to my therapy practice. I have a group practice. So even if you can't work with me, I have amazing clinicians, black women.

that all work with me. ⁓ And also I have my newest thing that I'm putting out because we talked a little bit about unlearning here is my unlearning sessions. And so these are short term three sessions where you sit with me in a group format and we predict one particular thing ⁓ that we are going to work on unlearning in an intensive format. So you really come in.

This first one that's coming up is about unloading our executive functioning, because we all take on way too much, especially as high achieving women. And when we unload, we're able to make decisions that we've been avoiding and putting off that actually will shift our lives. So that first three sessions is about that. ⁓ So I'm going to be doing these throughout the year, probably once per quarter, where it's an intensive with me, where we do unlearning.

Erin Braxton (54:34)

Is that like a group thing?

Dr.  Mel (54:35)

It is a group. It is a group format. There are opportunities for you to work with me one to one after the core, like three intensive sessions, but we start in a group format because I personally want to work on, ⁓ reaching more people. There's a, there's a ceiling to how many one-to-one sessions I can do. So this allows me to reach other people. Also, we heal in community. We do not heal in isolation. And I know people don't love group formats, but I'm telling you there's healing.

when you're doing it in community. love a group.

Erin Braxton (55:09)

I love a group. my gosh.

Dr.  Mel (55:12)

Yeah, it's beautiful. I'm excited. Yeah.

Erin Braxton (55:15)

Well that sounds amazing. I know who I'm, I need to pass that along to somebody who was just saying they need to unlearn some stuff. So. I'm on my way. I absolutely will. I will. Well guys, this has been great. Dr. Mel has really given us some things to work on, some ways to check ourselves, ⁓ you know, some good nuggets on how to really ⁓ become emotionally better.

Dr.  Mel (55:23)

Please.

Erin Braxton (55:44)

And obviously if this isn't enough, you can get more of Dr. Mel. I'm going to put all this stuff in the comments. I'm not in the comments, in the description and then the show notes on Spotify and all of the things. So I guess that's it. So thank you, thank you, thank you so much, Dr. Mel. We really appreciate you. And thank you everyone for joining us and we will see you in the next episode.

All right.