speaker-0 (00:00)

I felt heartbroken, I felt completely abandoned, detached from God and everything I had been taught about faith. I then had to make a decision, do I remain in this religion and be recorded as a sinner, even though someone harmed me, or do I leave? I was praying for years that I would see the error of my ways and I would understand how they had come to their conclusion. I don't understand why I feel so much pain about being raped.

and yet the elders are creating a new narrative and saying that I sinned and I'm unclean. When I was taught what the role of a wife was, what the role of women was, I did not find it attractive or appealing whatsoever. I should not have to downplay or shrink my intelligence, my brilliance, my essence, really, just to simply get married, end up cooking and cleaning for a man. I believe that women need to

and be well resourced. We need to understand and accept that money does not come from men. It's a renewable resource. It is not masculine, skeptical, cynical as a woman to generate money on your own terms and use that money so that you have options. And that way I can't be contained. I can't be controlled. There is no carrot or stick. I didn't ever really fit into a lot of the black business communities. Obviously the space I'm in is not beauty. I don't do pop culture.

I'm not doing music, I don't act, I'm not in fitness. So in a way, sometimes there isn't really a space for me in a lot of black business communities and black creative communities sometimes because that's not the space that I'm in.

Erin Braxton (01:49)

Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee No Cream Podcast. My name is Erin Braxton, and I am the host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, we are unapologetically dedicated to black women, and we share what I like to call Coffee No Cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in business and in life just because we are black women. Today I have a good one. I have the unpunishable woman, Ashanti, here to talk to us about being unpunishable. Now

I started watching Ashanti on TikTok many, many months ago. This woman is so wise, I think, for her age. I think she is just a a real advocate for being ⁓ what she calls an an unpunishable woman, which is a woman who is regulated, resourced, and rooted. She is an advocate for women. And I knew when I first saw her this woman is so wise for her age. She

is just speaking life into women who want to be successful and be independent, how to have your own money, how to live a life where you're happy with or without a man. And I mean she just is ⁓ just brilliant. Great information, great conversation. I'm so excited. We we were trying to get something together many months ago and we finally touched base.

Just the other day, and she is here with us today. So super excited about that. So stick around. You do want to hear this conversation. Before we get into it though, guys, please like, please share, please hype the video. Share this with anyone you feel needs it. ⁓ we've got the Facebook group, we have got the free resource tool, coffee no cream.com forward slash free. All those links are below in the description box or in the show notes if you're listening on Spotify.

And so let's just get into it. So welcome Ashanti. How are you today?

speaker-0 (03:46)

am doing really, really well. It's so good to be here with you.

Erin Braxton (03:50)

I'm so excited. You guys don't even know what you're about to see right now. This woman is so brilliant. I have been watching you for months on TikTok just blow up and so intelligent, so I I don't want to say articulate because that's such a like you know how we get called articulate. But she is like in the way she gives these reads with the British accent, you guys are in for a treat. We've got the unpunishable.

woman today. And I just want to start it off about I just want to start off and ask you, tell us what an unpunishable woman is for those of us who don't know what that is, who don't know you yet.

speaker-0 (04:33)

Yeah, that's such a good question. So an unpunishable woman is a woman that is rooted in herself. She knows who she is. She's regulated, so she understands how to regulate her nervous system and she's resourced. So those are the three key pillars really that make up an unpunishable woman. And the reason why it's important to be an unpunishable woman is that as women we do live in a world with systems of power that do punish us when we do not obey invisible contracts that we've been

often from girlhood and we've been promised that obeying those invisible contracts will keep us safe, will keep us protected, that we will belong and that we will be chosen essentially, usually by men in the end. So that's why it's so important for women to learn how to be rooted, regulated and resourced so that we can make different decisions without having to be punished in the process.

Erin Braxton (05:28)

Okay.

So tell us tell us how you got here. Like tell me the story of Ashanti 'cause I've heard I've heard all. I've listened to you. ⁓ but tell us how you got here because again, you are so young to me. When I think back to when I was your age, fourteen, fifteen years ago, ⁓ I wasn't there.

You know what I'm saying? You know, ⁓ and maybe I was and I'm just not giving myself, but you you do such a wonderful job of empowering women. So how did you find this path? Because I think so many of us, black women especially, are trying to figure out our purpose, which is a big loaded word, right? Yes. You know?

speaker-0 (06:15)

I think... It's an interesting one, I think...

I, you know, leaving religion ⁓ five and a half, six years ago was a key catalyst in me having to confront and address the invisible contracts that were governing my life. So I grew up as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's a very particular and specific ⁓ religion, which has very, again, specific roles for men and women. ⁓ growing up in that religion and also being an adult in that religion and being single,

taught me a lot about systems of power, what they expect of women, and the difference between what you're taught and what your lived reality often is. my experience of leaving religion unexpectedly, because it was never a plan for me, I never saw a life outside of that religion, my entire identity was consumed wholeheartedly, fullheartedly in my faith.

and my religion, okay? And so when I had to leave the religion unexpectedly, it forced me to grow up and it forced me to mature. And I realized in that moment how much about life that I really didn't know, quite frankly, how much of myself I had self-abandoned, how much I had outsourced my identity, my self-value, my self-worth, because when that was removed from me, I literally didn't even know who I was. ⁓ It did feel like ⁓ a crisis.

so to speak, because everything in my life and every security, every certainty was in what I was taught about God, but equally what I was then taught about my value in his eyes within that religion. And when I, you know, realized and learned there is a massive difference between what is taught and what happens to you as a woman in reality, I just had to grow up. That's the only way I can explain it. forced

like a system reset in order for me to survive that period of my life.

Erin Braxton (08:25)

Can you talk about what it was that made you just wake up?

speaker-0 (08:30)

my goodness. I mean, look, I did not, I realized I didn't know myself. So bearing in mind, I'd spent years of my life reading and studying the Bible. So one of the things I will say about that religion, especially back in the day, it's probably changed a bit now, but you know, back in the day, you would study the scriptures. And so, ⁓

You would read the Bible at least once a year end to end and it was something that I actually thoroughly enjoyed doing. I loved the research element, I loved the history element, all of the things. And so in all my, well it was my entire life up until the age of about 32, I sincerely believed that everything we are instructed to do was based upon the scriptures. That was what I was taught.

And just before I turned 30, I was raped, unfortunately, and the process within the religion is that you go to the elders. And when I went to the elders, they took me through what is called a judicial process, and I was punished, essentially. Now, the terminology they use internally is that I was disciplined, but essentially they disbelieved me and said that, look, we need to decide whether you are clean enough to remain in the congregation. And for me as a young woman having

abstained until, well, I had abstained. I had done all of the things that you were meant to do. I was a good daughter, a good sister, a good member of the congregation. I was not on the edge of the congregation. I didn't live a double life. It was the, the best one I can describe it was a heartbreak. I felt heartbroken. I felt completely abandoned, detached from God and everything I had been taught about faith.

and identity in relation to that, it completely destabilized, it changed me on a cellular level, the trauma, the pain, the emotional pain, the spiritual pain, it changed me on a cellular level. And I then had to make a decision, do I remain in this religion and be recorded as a sinner, even though someone harmed me, or do I leave?

And of course, leaving had consequences because my entire life was in that religion. Friends, family, et cetera. And I've never lived outside of the religion either. So if I left, it would require me to build a new life. But equally, it might mean that my family members may stop speaking to me depending upon the decision that the elders were going to take. Because one of the disciplines is that you can be what in mainstream Christianity would term excommunicated.

But the consequence of that back then would be that your family could not speak to you. And so there were some important kind of decisions I had to make about, am I going to honor my dignity or am I going to obey these invisible contracts in order to be accepted and be deemed to be ⁓ worthy of God's forgiveness for a sin that I don't believe I even committed? Yeah.

Erin Braxton (11:36)

Right.

So how did your family respond to you?

speaker-0 (11:39)

I'm incredibly fortunate that our relationship now is the strongest it's probably ever been. But there was no guarantee of that. I understood when I made these decisions about leaving that I'd already gone through a grieving process already. And so I had prepared myself for a life whereby my family may not have contact with me, may not talk to me, or the relationship would materially change on an emotional level.

I'm incredibly fortunate that has not happened, but I prepared myself for that mentally when I made the decision to leave.

Erin Braxton (12:16)

Okay, so you you you leave you you start whether you knew it at the time or not, I'd I'm I'm assuming you probably didn't because that's the way things go. ⁓ that you're you're you're constructing your your your your you're creating this life as an unpunishable woman. Yes.

speaker-0 (12:18)

Yes.

Erin Braxton (12:39)

So what does that look like? I mean, when you first left, because I mean at this point and I don't know with Jehovah Witnesses how I have a I have a really good friend actually who's a Jehovah's Witness and she's very successful. ⁓ so you're you're you're obviously in your career at this time. I know you owned a business at ⁓ at once upon a time. So tell us a little bit about that and then how we're transitioning.

speaker-0 (13:04)

Yeah. So and that's even an interesting, the decisions I made even on a professional level from that year onwards, if I wasn't traumatized, I probably wouldn't have made some of those decisions at all, to be honest. So after that, in that year, I went on to open a coffee shop. So one of the things, you know, I'd always wanted to do was open a coffee shop. So I opened the first independent coffee shop in the area I grew up in for something like 25 years. ⁓

very poor decision. If anyone knows anything about the coffee shop business, bricks and mortar businesses, incredibly, incredibly hard, right, to get off the ground and take them to a profitable place. so, yeah, fortunately, I had business interests and pursuits outside of my religion, which again,

I've always probably looking back broken the rules because in that religion before you weren't allowed to pursue higher education, but I went to university. It was a necessity for me. And then I've always been interested in business. so fortunately, even with leaving the religion, I had something to occupy me. And in many ways it kept me ⁓ focused. I could kind of almost freeze the pain ⁓ from the whole leaving religion thing and focus wholeheartedly on.

running that coffee shop business. And so that's what I started to do. And then of course the pandemic came along and I made the decision to shut that coffee shop because I knew I could make more money going back to consulting, which is what I was doing before I opened the coffee shop. And so I made sure that I kind of transitioned back into consulting.

Erin Braxton (14:41)

What kind of consulting? 'Cause it's so funny 'cause I've been on this kind of this everybody's a consultant. I consult. I consult, right? But I know and you know, as black women especially, we are so diverse. We are so amazing. And a lot of people are like, You can consult. I'm the consultant, you know, and you're just gonna go out here and consult. And so what kind of consulting do you do? I'm just yeah. I know you're in the sales.

speaker-0 (15:08)

I

sell cultural transformation and strategy essentially to corporate organizations. So that's always been my thing. And the modalities that we tend to offer once we're inside that organization is training, coaching, advisory work. I tend to do a lot of C-suite briefings, looking over a lot of the culture strategies that they want to develop, learning and development strategies, that kind of thing. It's really what I, that's my bread and butter. Yeah, yeah.

Erin Braxton (15:36)

So this is what I was gonna ask you that it slipped my mind. So where are you mentally with like, can I ask you with your faith? You know, because this is a big one, you know, with black women especially. I I feel something's happening with us and ⁓ you know, not necessarily with just Jehovah's Witnesses, but as well in the black church.

The Christian church, black Christians in ⁓ here in the US. Yes. Where where are you on that?

speaker-0 (16:11)

Yeah, so that's a good question. There's two things I'll say in terms of what I feel right now. I do still believe in a God. And I know that's very unpopular to say these days, but I do still believe in a God, but I would not regard myself as religious. And it's so funny when I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

there's a very clear delineation between a practicing Jehovah's Witness and someone who's not. And so that's why for me, I always say I'm not religious because I'm not actively practicing any religion. I'm not a member of a church officially or any religion, but I do still believe in a God. I think also where I'm at, and obviously this plays into my work, I do believe that religion is a system of power. And I think religion and spirituality and faith are different things. think religions that operate...

in an organized way, have a legal entity, they are systems of power and ultimately they are there to retain their power over people. ⁓ And a lot of rank and file members of religions don't realize that because when you are brought into that organization, any organization, the angle is usually about your faith, right? And you and God, but you are unaware that it's an entire organization.

that operates like any other secular organization. It's registered with the government. There are tax benefits to them. They have a lot of money. And I think the Black church, obviously here in America, you can see more of that on the outside, but actually in the religion I came from, you can be an everyday publisher and completely unaware about the level of wealth that that religion actually has. And you might be struggling day to day yourself. of course, and so for me,

I do believe that religions operate like systems of power, especially when they are male-led and when the leadership and authority is male-led and where women have no voice either in any of the ways. So for example, the judicial process I went through, there's never any kind of, ⁓ there's not a feedback box, right? So bearing in mind it's a religion where the majority of the members are women, which means that the majority of the members,

are women who go through this judicial process. But nobody's coming to check what the experience was like, was it done fairly, ethically, what the impact on your mental health is. There's just no check and balance on that, right? And so you end up as a woman being alone in a room with men being questioned about whether or not your rape is de-jaculated on you. And nobody is checking for this. Nobody cares. There's no consequences, no nothing.

Right, that is allowed, it's permissible. And in fact, if you do try to escalate, which is quite difficult, quite frankly, if you want to complain, that's not a thing. You are navigating a system of power and a system of hierarchy. That's what you end up navigating, which is very different in reality to what you're sold, which is that it's all about your relationship with God.

He's loving, he's there for you, he cares for you. But actually with something like that, which is very real and has a real impact on your mental health, your sanity, like I say, your dignity, there is no check and balance whatsoever. So for me, I'm not interested or inclined in joining a religion to have to navigate another system of power in that way.

Erin Braxton (19:39)

Did you go to therapy after that?

speaker-0 (19:42)

I did. It was absolutely necessary eventually. I think at first I just thought I'll figure this out because having gone through a process where you are, like I say, you're sitting before men who are telling you that they can make a decision as to whether you're clean enough to remain in the congregation. you've been told that, you know, this is how God sees you. You're the one who's done something wrong in God's eyes.

I did not have the bandwidth, quite frankly, to go and speak to somebody else about what had happened to me. In fact, for about two to three years, I spent most of the time praying for humility because I, based on my Bible knowledge, I really didn't see what the scriptural grounds were for me to be punished when somebody had harmed me. And so I was praying for years that I would see the error of my ways and I would understand how they had come to their conclusion.

in terms of the way they treated me and the decision that was actually made. So I did not even really process the original injury for years because my entire attention and focus was on being accepted in this religion as clean. So it was about three years really until the first time I really went into trauma therapy and had to sit for the first time and grieve what had originally happened to me.

Erin Braxton (21:03)

So did you have to ⁓ did you talk to the the elders or the men of the church because your attacker was a member of the church?

speaker-0 (21:12)

But you have to, so this is what you're encouraged to do. And it's ironic because even to this day, if you speak to members of that religion, they'll say you did the right thing, right? So the culture and the process is that anything that happens like that in your life, you need to go and speak to the elders. And ideally what they send you is that the elders are shepherds. And so they're there to shepherd you, right? And so the idea is that they will help you, comfort you, but that's not what happened to me at all.

Erin Braxton (21:47)

So during okay, this is this is something I think we struggle with because, you know, I was raised as a Christian. I consider myself a Christian, but I'm spiritual, I'm not I'm not religious, but am I a Christian? So I feel like I'm kind of on the fence these days, right? you know, I used to be very involved in my church. You know, you see things, you know things.

And you're just like, nah, you know, so when you were making the decision, you said before you were attacked you ⁓ had no ch you know, you you weren't weren't even thinking about it.

speaker-0 (22:30)

not

at all. fact, even when this all happened, I had no intentions of leaving. It was really because of the shock and the doubling down that the organization did around taking me through a judicial and disciplining me, even though I hadn't done anything wrong. It was the fact that my mental health had sunk so low. I'd gone to a place I barely function some days. And so I thought, this can't be correct. I don't believe it's either this is a very cruel God,

This is a very cruel God and I'm experiencing his wrath even though I don't think I deserve it but I'm not sure because God knows all things so I must have done something even though I don't know what it was. It was at a point where I thought maybe I fell asleep during the attack because I don't remember consenting. I didn't invite this person to do this to me. Maybe I fell asleep. Literally I thought I losing my mind. And so I had no...

Even when they disciplined me and they said, this is the consequences. What happens is they, there's three levels to the discipline and they will put you on a review process. And so for three months they were reviewing my behavior and they were looking for me to show that I was repentant for what I had done. And so then at the end of the three months, you go back to the elders and they basically tell you what their thoughts are. And when I got there, bearing in mind, I was barely getting out of bed some.

And I still was going to all of the meetings. I was still going out on the ministry. So I was doing all the worship activities that were expected of me. I got to the review meeting after three months and they said, you haven't demonstrated enough spiritual maturity. And it was at that point at the three month line, I remember a voice in my body. was an all over voice that said, you need to leave and get to safety. Now this has gone too far. So it was really in that moment when

even when I'd done everything I could in the midst of fresh trauma, they were saying, this isn't good enough. And that's when I decided, begrudgingly, it wasn't like I was looking forward to it. I was happy about it. I didn't know what the next steps would be for me. But I remember that voice coming through saying, you need to leave and get to safety. And it was another, I'd say 10 months before I stopped going to the meetings in time.

Erin Braxton (24:48)

Yeah, I was gonna ask you and you you answered before I could even ask, like when you decide that you're okay, this is what I've been doing, this is what I've known my entire life and you make the decision like I'm not feeling this anymore, right? I I've gotta go.

You know, it it happened in a moment. You said you felt the you you heard the you heard a voice, you felt it in your spirit, you knew that. But it to it still took you ten min ⁓ months. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause I I I f I I can just hear some of my friends talking about it. You know, like the way we talk is not the way our grandmothers talked. You know? No.

speaker-0 (25:31)

So, and you know, it is because there's a logistical unraveling. know, the time I was the person in the family that dropped everyone to the meetings. So there had to be, I had to figure that part out because it significantly obviously impacted their routine and how they got to the meeting. Right. And so I was trying to figure that out. And then of course, remember I had been taught that if you leave this religion,

you will die at Armageddon, you will lose God's approval, you lose this global brotherhood that is ever so loving, apparently. So that is a massive change. I had to think about, how am I going to survive? I knew I could survive money-wise and whatnot, but how was I going to survive as a human being? How was I going to square that fear of dying at Armageddon? What was I going to do around that, right? And the truth is, at that point in time, I hadn't completely lost any

and all regard for God. I still cared about what he thought of me, whether or not I would indeed be living a life that he would approve of, right? And so I needed to figure that out for 10 months. And I think a part of me, like I said, I was still praying for humility. was praying to God to show me where I had gone wrong. Because if this is my haughtiness, if this is my ⁓ misstep, I need you to reveal it to me so that I can work through what feels like

a a deep intrinsic trauma and pain. I don't understand why I feel so much pain about being raped and yet the elders are creating a new narrative and saying that I sinned and I'm unclean. I, I could not reconcile those two things and so I think I spent that 10 months trying to figure that out and see are you wrong? Are you the one that's lacking in humility? You're, you must be the one who doesn't understand scripture.

And so I would spend time reading the Bible. I would research everything I could find on rape in the Bible. Like it was obsessive for me to understand where I had gone wrong in my estimation of God and also this religion.

Erin Braxton (27:38)

And I think that's the thing, like what you said was I still believe in a God. I mean, I definitely believe in God. I still believe. I mean, I definitely do. I d I actually feel like I I'm closer to God when I haven't been in the church. Like I I I know that sounds crazy to some of the listeners, but it's just been my experience. but anywho. ⁓ okay, let's talk about why you're so

speaker-0 (28:06)

You

Erin Braxton (28:07)

like celebrity over here on TikTok because un I mean the fact that she went ⁓ what do you have like two hundred thousand subscribers now? And you started in ⁓ what you said September? ⁓ it's it's good, you guys. It's good. It's good. So let's talk about being an unpunishable woman and I want to talk about your decisions to

speaker-0 (28:20)

mid-september 2025

Erin Braxton (28:36)

not be married, your decisions to not have children. 'cause I'm not married. I don't have children and I'm older than you. And I and I and I feel and I've said this before, it's not like I just tried not to have children. I just I've I've always been very into my career. I never really tried to have children. I never really tried to meet someone. I'm I was more interested

and what was going on, I think, in my life than I was in finding my person, you know, and then you meet them and then they they disappoint you and then you're hurt and then you go away and then you try again. But but tell us about your decision to to not do that because I I know I was just actually talking to a friend of mine whose mother didn't even want her to go to law school. She went to Columbia Law.

Right? Then she went she was an at she's went to work for Google as a patent attorney. I mean, very successful. But her mother just was like, That's too much. Like you need to, you know, go have kids, you need to you know, and I mean, it was crazy. She's like, You guys better get behind me and support me 'cause I'm doing it, right? And she ultimately got married and has a beautiful family and all the things. But talk to us about your decisions.

speaker-0 (29:56)

Well, the roots of that, again, are based in my upbringing in the religion. So there are very distinct roles. Well, first of all, there's only real one.

There's two things you can do as a woman in that religion. Get married and be somebody's wife and go on to have children if that's something you choose to do. Or you are a single sister. And I say that because that's the way you're referred to when you're a single sister all the time. It's that single sister, the single sister over there, which used to annoy me chronically. And so you only have two roles. And I grew up in a time where the worst thing that could happen to me on a Sunday morning if we went to the Kingdom Hall and the talk was about marriage, because it's usually, it used to be when I was growing up,

60 minute talk, I kid you not, 44 minutes of that 60 minutes would be spent talking about women submitting to men. when I was taught what the role of a wife was, what the role of women was, I did not find it attractive or appealing whatsoever. And so I just always knew that obviously I never thought I would leave the religion and therefore I would never get married. And I was okay with that. I was very settled in that. I wanted to retain my bodily autonomy.

my independence, my freedom of thought, and I quite frankly did not want to have to cook and clean for a man. I had no interest in doing that. And so even in the religion, I just had no plans, made no efforts whatsoever to get married. ⁓ And also I should also add that in that religion, you don't date. It's always courtship with a view to marriage. And so there's no in-between. You're a single woman or you're courting and then you're married. That's how it works. And so...

When I saw from the inside out how apparently God sees women and their role, especially in the household, where you're literally, you know, they'd have ridiculous things like they'd say, you know, a woman, a wife who respects her husband, if you're going on a car journey, literally, if you're on a car journey and he's taking the wrong route out of respect, you allow him to figure it out first. You wouldn't just go and ask somebody for directions, all that kind of foolishness. And I used to just think this is a nonsense. I always understood.

that I was a whole being and that there was nothing lacking in me, quite frankly, and that I should not have to downplay or shrink my intelligence, my brilliance, my essence, really, just to simply get married, end up cooking and cleaning for a man, have children that I'd have to do most of the work with. I just did not want to do it at all. And so...

The singleness thing for me is not new. was very much in my upbringing based on what I saw of the lives of the women living around me. Now, what I would say is I was always a bit of an outlier because I grew up in a generation, I think, in that religion where there were, would say maybe one or two generations above us, I'm 37, they were women who, less of them got married. Let's just put it that way, especially if they were black.

And so I grew up witnessing women who were unhappy, were sometimes miserable, sometimes depressed, lonely, you know? And also you're in an environment where, as I say, 96 % of the women want to get married. So when you're going out to dinners, that is the entire conversation, is how they're going to get married, why they're not married, who's courting, who's not courting. I found it terribly boring.

right, you're under-stimulating in general, like to talk about. But that is the obsession because there's nothing else you can do. You can't hold a position of authority in that religion. They discourage higher education. So what else will you do as a woman, especially if you want to experience some validation, some recognition, because you're not going to get it because of Korea. You have the only time in that religion probably for a woman that you will be celebrating is if you get engaged, if you marry, and then if you go on to have children.

there was no other opportunity for you to be truly celebrated in terms of womanhood, in terms of non-worship related things. Does that make sense like this? Because we don't, we didn't celebrate birthdays, we don't celebrate Christmases. So there's no individual celebration happening and you are discouraged from pursuing other things. the only and probably, you know, most significant time of external validation comes from in getting engaged and getting married.

and then going on to have children.

Erin Braxton (34:19)

Right. So you're you're you're not doing none of that. ⁓ You're un You're unpunishable. You're very successful. So give give the viewers a an example of your unpunishable life, like what that means in like layman's terms, like like rooted, resourced. What's the what's the other one?

speaker-0 (34:42)

regularly.

Erin Braxton (34:42)

Regulated, yes. So but give give us an example of what that looks like because y you you be spitting facts and doing reads and the one about the wig install and investing money in yourself or something just had me on the floor. You probably don't even remember. But I was like, no, she d no. So tell us what that means. Because this is important, guys. This is like important stuff because especially as black women

We a lot of us desire to be married, we desire to be partnered, we desire to be married and partnered with another black male. And there's a shortage of those going around. Right? So if we're not willing to cross racial boundaries and and and try something different, which I think we're becoming more open to, ⁓ you know ⁓

There comes a time where we have to make a decision on, you know, can we be happy if we don't get that? You know, and can we take care of ourselves if we don't? 'Cause I was talking to my friend who's going through a separation right now. This woman is successful and she's concerned about she's she said to me, Yeah, I I I can pay the bills. I can and I'm thinking,

Really girl, that was a concern for you? Because I I of course you can of course you can, you know. But tell us what it means really to be unpunishable in in the day to day in your life.

speaker-0 (36:18)

So for me, a lot of that has been around.

One, following my desires, right? And on a day-to-day basis, I have an environment physically that is peaceful, that is quiet, that is structured as well, because I need a bit of both. I travel wherever I want to when I want to. And that was a thing when I was in the religion. was like you couldn't really travel too much if you weren't going to your local congregation. They'd say, where are you? And my thing was, I don't have kids. I'm not married. I can go where I want to go. Right.

When I bought, I love cars, I bought a kind of what you would call, I guess, it was a Jeep. And I remember I pulled up to drop something off to an elder and he said, why have you got that car? You're not married and you don't have kids. I said, am I meant to be on a scooter?

just because I don't have a husband and children. And I think for me on a day-to-day basis about really following my desires, making sure that I have the things I want in my life. I don't work harder than I need to or than I want to. I had a cleaner for years, which people were like, why do you need a cleaner? Because I want one. That's why. I make sure that my life is comfortable. For starters, I make sure it's peaceful, that I'm very much a desire-led person now.

And also I think another important thing probably that I talk about a lot on TikTok is money. I believe that women need to be well resourced. We need to understand and accept that money does not come from men. It's a renewable resource. It is not masculine, skeptical, cynical as a woman to generate money on your own terms and use that money so that you have options, you have leverage, you have freedom.

You have choices. That's what I'm really, really focused on in my life is making sure I'm well resourced. And that way I can't be contained. I can't be controlled. There is no carrot or stick. Anyone, most certainly not a man, can hold over my head because my identity, my value, my sense of safety is not in a man. It is in myself.

Erin Braxton (38:26)

Well wha how do you respond? How do you encourage like I'm gonna say the you know, the sprinkle sprinkle people who, you know, are looking for that 'cause I I've never been that kind of woman, but you know I think men expect women to be that kind of woman, but I don't know that it necessarily pays off.

speaker-0 (38:47)

Yeah, I think, look, one thing I have learned since coming on TikTok and talking about money and women, and there are people who are very attached for a lot of reasons to that kind of manifesto, that kind of ⁓ approach to life, which is that you look for a man with money and you expect him to be a provider and in exchange you are going to submit to him and you are going to serve domestically, you are going to give up your body essentially in exchange for that money.

It's not my personal worldview and way of looking at things for me personally. I've long realized since being on TikTok, those people can't be helped or converted and that's okay. They usually are quite entrenched in that attitude and quite frankly are willing to, ⁓ you know, ⁓ deal with the trade-offs of allowing a man to be your main source of income. They're willing to do it. And so,

It is what it is, even though we can see from plenty of examples, evidence, research, data, that that's an incredibly precarious situation to put yourself in as a woman, not to have any of your own income, women still choose to do it.

Erin Braxton (40:00)

Mm-hmm. So for those who want 'cause this is when 'cause I'm when I'm watching you, it's just like I'm like, yes, yes, to everything, right? This is true. But we still I mean, men and women want to get together, right? But you're just encouraging there's an intelligent way to go about it, right?

speaker-0 (40:23)

I

so. I think that marriage is a system of power. It always has been. And I think that the smartest thing that a woman can do is negotiate her power before going into that system. I think if you're going into it with love and romance being at the forefront, I think that's a mistake. It's a folly and it's not because I make the rules. It's just the way the system works, right? Most of the protections that women believe that they are accessing when they get married are protections that are set out by the law.

not the man. we see all too often if his affection, his attention, his desire for you disappears or dissipates, so does that money. Okay? And it's only because of the law, say you go through a proper divorce process, that you may or may not receive resources. And if you look at the actual stats, a lot of women, I think it's less than 20 % of women in America actually get half the money, right? A lot of women actually go into poverty after divorce, depending upon their circumstances. And so,

Those protections that women often think that they are accessing through marriage are not because of the man. It's the law who's created these laws around how a marriage is formed and then how it's dissolved. Right? And so I think it's a complete myth that marriage itself, as in the man and the love part, is what is protecting it. It's not. It's a legal arrangement. That's what it is fundamentally. And that's what it's kind of always been.

Erin Braxton (41:50)

So if I can ask you, 'cause we don't get to know we don't get to know a shanti on ⁓ we know some stuff, you know, but so how are how are you 'cause like I am very independent. I take care of myself. I own my own home. I have a car, I have property, I d I have I take care of myself, right? But I would still like to have a man if he's the right fit, I'm worried that it

I'm worried about being distracted in the wrong way. Right. And that's always been my thing, right? But where are you on that? Like do you feel like are you just like, ⁓ I don't want it

speaker-0 (42:31)

this point in time, I like life the way it is. look, I've said this before, because I have, and I continue to try and unbound myself to what society says a woman should be. And I'm very, for me, I am the authority on me. I decide what womanhood and femininity is for me. And so...

Probably, at best, for me to be able to still retain my brilliance, my essence, my energy, and not have to filter my thoughts and the way I think about life, the world, myself, I would only be able to, at best, partner with a man who's done that work in himself.

Erin Braxton (43:14)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (43:14)

Because

otherwise we would be completely incompatible, it be a complete nightmare for him, that's for sure. It would be a complete nightmare for him. And when I say this, sometimes people, what they're hearing is that I'm saying that there's no man that's intelligent enough. I'm not even talking about academic education, I'm talking about a sense of consciousness, a sense of connection to self, and somebody who understands that they are an imperfect human being and they're not a god, and they're not my god.

And therefore you do not inform who I, what I think of myself and how I see myself. And so in logistical terms, I don't think I'd ever live with a man. That's not something I'm interested in doing is living with a man, that's for sure. I will never do more labor than I do now. It's out of the question. So I don't think I'd ever live with a man and I don't see a necessity for marriage because it's a system of power and the only literally the only circumstance

Erin Braxton (44:00)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (44:12)

in which I would initiate and require marriages if I was giving birth to children, because I would absolutely want my children to enjoy the structural advantages of marriage. It isn't because I love the man, it would be because I understand the role marriage plays in social status, social enablement, social mobility, and I would want to give any children that I give birth to that structure and foundation in life, because it's not simply about...

how I feel about marriage, it's about the way the world treats them as well. And I think when you are black, as a black woman, me personally, I am not looking to perpetuate some of those social stigmas and some of the social barriers that come from being an unmarried mother, being a single mother, for example, it's not for me. And so I recognize that the systems of power recognize marriage and they treat you accordingly in the education system, in the healthcare system.

for their future career. And so if I was gonna give birth to my own children, I absolutely would require marriage and I would strategically marry. I would not be marrying for love. Absolutely not. I would be marrying somebody who can bring that structure and match my structure and give those children the foundation that I think that they deserve. That is really the only circumstance under which I would consider marriage.

Erin Braxton (45:32)

So smart. ⁓

Those have been my biggest mistakes in dating is I haven't been strategic. You know? I'm like, he's funny. He's fun. You know I told my dad one time, I said, Yeah, daddy, I could get married, but he can have his own house and then I can just stay in my house and he can have his house. And he was like, Don't do that. You can't do that and I'm just like, Why not? Like, you know. So I I love that setup and somebody was talking about that. I

I saw somebody post about it on TikTok about having that arrangement and I think that's

speaker-0 (46:09)

It is not actually a modern thing. think people don't realise this whole thing about a couple sleeping in the same bed in the same house is actually relatively new. are civilisations that have gone before where a husband and wife would not have had the same bedroom, they wouldn't have had the same quarters. And when you look at cultures whereby polygamy is quite common, etc., they weren't all sleeping in the same bed. They had their own tents, they had their own huts, they had their own quarters, depending on what class they were from.

This whole phenomenon, because that's what it is, of sleeping in the same bed in the same house every single night as a married couple, and that being a litmus test of the health of your marriage, is actually quite modern and made up. It's a complete social construct entirely.

Erin Braxton (46:52)

Yeah. And I mean I think it's it's more common than people think that couples don't sleep together, you know, for a myriad of reasons, you know.

speaker-0 (47:00)

this

is one of the areas for me, like I'm quite low tolerance on some of this stuff. That's why said I would be a nightmare for a man because I don't understand why I'm having to debate with you whether I need to sleep next to you every night. That's just going to annoy me. Quite frankly, I don't understand why we're having such a ridiculous conversation. You think that the health of our marriage is fundamentally, one of the fundamental pillars is whether or not I sleep next to you every night. It's to me, it would just annoy me.

Erin Braxton (47:27)

Well it goes back I think to also what you were saying about access to your body. Access because if I see w another video about women who have separated or are trying to leave their husbands, they can't even take a shower. Every time they take a shower, here he is. You know

speaker-0 (47:44)

It annoys me chronically, I have to say. It does. And, you know, again, this is why I've talked about a sense of consciousness and connection to self and dignity, because my thing is when I observe men talking about this holistically, not every single individual man, of course, it's like they don't understand that dignity part. Like, the responses are all about, I'm married to be monogamous, not celibate. It's like...

you do not have unfettered access to another human being's body for your own release. Because to me, unless it's mutual and reciprocal, unless it's defined by mutual pleasure, that's just gratification. So unless I'm experiencing pleasure every single time, that is gratification because you are effectively using my body for your release. And I'm not brought in to the belief that that is a woman's fundamental.

Erin Braxton (48:33)

No. That's very rare. I was traveling this week, ⁓ past week and we were talking about every single time for a woman, that's that's not even real. And no.

speaker-0 (48:46)

It's not so why are we doing this? My thing is I should be enjoying it as much as you and if that's not happening I need to pull back on that then. see I would be a nightmare as can tell Erin because it's just not gonna work like I need to be having as many orgasms as

Erin Braxton (49:02)

Yeah.

I would too and I told my I told my friend was trying to tell and I got I got a little defensive with him. I love him to death. He's married newly married I say two years ago, but he's in his mid fifties and he's you know, and I and I have another guy in my life who's newly married in his fifties and they they always have so much advice. It's like, you know, I love how these newly married men who got married in their fifties have so much love advice.

You know it's like give me a break but he I said something, I don't even know what the conversation was. And he said, Well, Aaron, that's probably why you don't have a man And I was just like

And then he went on to say, Well, I think what you need 'cause da da da da da And then I and he said, and then now you now you're defensive. Now you see how you got defensive? I'm like, I'm defensive because I didn't ask you Exact what I need. I didn't say I want w a man right now and I and this is my problem. I never said that. You just decided to put that on me. I mean, yes, if the right one comes, great. You know what I'm saying? But yeah, it's like it's it's assuming something's wrong with you. You know.

speaker-0 (49:54)

you

I mean, my thing is when people say this is why you don't have a man, again, I challenge the premise that I desire one. I challenge the premise that it is of more value than what I have now in the life I'm living now. I challenge the very premise because I don't feel defensive about it. I'm like, yeah, that is why I don't have a man because funny enough, I respect myself. So yeah, I'm okay with that actually. If that is the reason why a man who, you know, a man, any, I mean, which man are we talking about random men? Like which man is it that I'm...

to be sad about that does not want me and does not desire me. And quite frankly, when it comes to really what really is, who are we being chosen by and what are we being chosen for? And that's always my thing as well, because unless it's to be honored, cherished and respected, and like I say, unless there are orgasms on the table, I don't need to be chosen. I simply do not need to be chosen, because what I'm seeing women be chosen for, it's not attractive to me.

Erin Braxton (51:11)

Yeah, yeah. So I I I when I moved back 'cause I was in LA for years and then I moved back to St. Louis in twenty one and I ran into this guy from high school. Hadn't seen him for years, never comments on any of my posts on Facebook. But I was just like, Hey, what's up? Hey and he's like, Hey, we were chit chatting and he says to me

Do you have significant other? And I was like, No, why? He's like, Well, I see your posts on Facebook and it doesn't look like you're ⁓ trying to run home to get home to anybody or anyone 'cause I was doing a lot of traveling at that time and I was like, Okay

Okay. Is that what you got from my just the weirdest stuff it was like, dude, I haven't seen you since like nineteen ninety two. You know, honestly. You know? But that's what you got? Is that I'm not married and I'm traveling the world. That sounds fabulous to me.

speaker-0 (52:09)

Exactly. who are we little girls running home to anybody? Like a curfew after school? You know, like for me, it's just utterly ridiculous because, know, and this is why I go back to that point is that I love to enjoy people in their essence. I love to be in somebody's true energy and I don't have a desire to change them. I also quite enjoy respecting people. Right. And so it would it simply would not work if the general attitude is that a man

Erin Braxton (52:12)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (52:39)

comes along and sees me as a woman and thinks that I need to be corrected, guided to my ultimate purpose and led, that's not, I'm the wrong woman for that because I found myself, I know myself, there is no higher purpose that I can only achieve through a man's eyes, for example, at all.

Erin Braxton (52:59)

So let's talk about your career because you're obviously extremely successful and ⁓ you were tell us about how you got into what you got into and how you because you probably worked for someone at some point and now you work for yourself, which is the goal. We know everybody cannot. Yes. And that's okay. But you know, for those who are interested, because it sounds quite fascinating what you do.

speaker-0 (53:27)

I think, first of all, think you make a really good point. And I think for single women, I think actually entrepreneurship or an independent contract of freelancer life is not for all single women because we already operate outside of these systems of power and there's a lack of structural support for single women as it is. And I actually think it can often be the smarter choice for a lot of women, particularly as they're aging, if they're single, to have a job.

I have to be quite honest and enjoy the benefits that come with that job. Be smart with your money and make sure that as you age, if you choose to retire, you are still well resourced. And I think this is a very important point. If you are single, entrepreneurship is not for everyone, right? Because there is no safety net outside of some of these traditional employment structures. But for me, I did initially go into financial compliance and corporate compliance, worked for the big banks in London.

worked for the Ombudsman Service in Banking, and then I did decide to go independent as a consultant. A lot of that was about me wanting to make more money. I found the salary restrictive. You're getting paid once a month, and it's a set amount, and I believed that I could earn more money ⁓ independently. And so that's what I've been doing now for 10 years, is selling my services to corporate organizations. And like I say, it comes with its highs and lows. You've got to be very resilient.

That much is true and there is no safety net, ultimately. That's the reality. And so I have the risk appetite for it. But I will say at 37, I've always already, over the last few years, I've been thinking if I want to be work optional, for example, by the time I'm 41, that's kind of my age. I want to be work optional. I need to start making different choices from now, quite frankly.

And so that's exactly what my focus is now, is I'm thinking now about 10, 15, 20 years down the what resources do I want to have in place as a woman?

Erin Braxton (55:25)

Mm. Gosh. ⁓ how did you transition from ⁓ working for someone into doing your own thing? Like how did you make that move?

speaker-0 (55:36)

It was quite,

what's the word, I went cold turkey. But I was young, right?

Erin Braxton (55:41)

Yeah,

this yeah.

speaker-0 (55:43)

I was 25, I think, so, you know, a little bit reckless, quite frankly. And I had made some decent decisions. I already owned a property. The mortgage was very small. So I'd made some decent decisions at the point at which I decided I'm going to leave. But nonetheless, I went off and I had to just kind of figure it out, essentially, as I went along.

Erin Braxton (56:08)

I was reckless too. I mean, my viewers know like I've been through bankruptcy, foreclosure, I've been through all the things. And, you know, you're young, you know, it's like okay. You know, but ⁓ you know, I just felt like I had to do that. Like I had to do that. And ⁓ whatever. It makes you stronger, it makes you it does. It makes you better, you know. ⁓

speaker-0 (56:30)

I think you're 37 now, you know, I moved to New York and that was something I always wanted to do.

Erin Braxton (56:41)

Yeah

I wanted to talk about that too.

speaker-0 (56:44)

Now is the time to start thinking, I think, in terms of infrastructure for 10 years, 20 years time. And so I am in a different season in terms of the way I'm thinking about money in particular.

Erin Braxton (56:48)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So you move to New York from London. From London? Yes. Okay, like yeah, like w a lot of black women are trying to get out of America. You come to America. And New York is a fabulous place. I mean New York is there's no there's no other city like it. ⁓ but that that's a scary move, you know. No?

speaker-0 (57:20)

It wasn't for me.

It was not. Honestly, I shed some tears in the cab from my mum's house, because I left from my mum's house that morning to get on flight. I shed some tears, it was because it was like a shedding, a genuine shedding in my nervous system, because I knew that I was inviting new experiences into my life. And it was the right time. It was needed. I deserved it.

I was doing what I really wanted to do and I was kind of very much shedding the roles that I had played for my entire life before that point. So it didn't feel like a scary decision but it felt significant for sure.

Erin Braxton (58:01)

yeah. So how how long have you been there? Yeah.

speaker-0 (58:03)

So it was a year in April, so I'm

about 14, 15 months in now. I love New York, and I have to say this, you know.

Erin Braxton (58:08)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (58:13)

I don't believe there was anywhere else I could have started unpunishable. It certainly would not have been, the community would not have been what it has been if I had started this in London. There are different dynamics, I think, about being a black woman in London, especially because unpunishable is not about aesthetics. So I don't do makeup, I don't do fashion. I am not very aesthetic to look at, right? I just show up, I don't wear makeup, my hair's natural. It's a very different environment and...

I don't think I would have been able to have grown the community this organically, but this rapidly if I was doing it from the UK. Really? Not at all. And black American women have been, from the beginning, key, you know, parts of the community. Yeah. Because I didn't even have personal social media. So when I first, I was literally sitting here when I first logged in and made an account on TikTok. And so I was already on the US algorithm.

It wasn't even on the UK one, right? And so it was black American women initially, then it's women from South Africa, Brazil, West Africa, all over the world started to join the community. And so I do believe that it is the right place for this season of my life.

Erin Braxton (59:27)

Yeah, I'm not a big glam girl. Like, you know, I like a greasy lip, you know, I don't do the lashes, I'm I I I'm natural, you know what I'm saying, hair and everything like that. So I get it. And I I just think people appreciate the authenticity, like, you know, 'cause you're just so real and when you come on it's just like God dang, you know? Like

speaker-0 (59:52)

I'm not done up at all and the thing is I think I said this on a live the other day like the amount of wig companies in my DMs At this point you can have the wig for free because they're like are you sure you don't want to put a wig on? ⁓ So that's really interesting and the amount of women I will say this I do think that

Erin Braxton (1:00:00)

are you serious?

speaker-0 (1:00:13)

Black American women obviously look after themselves, okay, and invest in their appearance, et cetera. And so I do get another black American woman saying, you know, why do you show up online without any makeup on? You know, it was quite, there was a period of time where black American women just did not understand why I didn't wear makeup, why I didn't wear shapewear, why I wasn't doing my hair. But I think people have gotten used to me now. But this is how I feel comfortable.

Erin Braxton (1:00:36)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (1:00:41)

This is how I feel comfortable and yeah, this is how I feel comfortable. I can't be any other way and actually I probably wouldn't turn the camera on. If I had to go and put makeup on and do my hair, I would not show up online at all. ⁓

Erin Braxton (1:00:55)

I say that. I say that too. I mean, my makeup routine is I I I do a ⁓ one of those crayon eye you can't even see. It's like a natural crayon eyeshadow, some mascara, some eyeliner, and a lip gloss. Like I am so basic and people be like, one of my friends, she's she's a model, not no shit, she's a model. And she's just like, You could be more sexy, you know, and I'm just like

Yeah, that's not it's not me. And like to see me in real life when I have my fro out, I'm five nine and a half. I'm not a little woman, you know. So all that to me, it with all that glam, it's fun, you know, for a photo shoot or something like that, but I just don't do it. I would never come in here. Like everything is set up, I just sit down and hit record. I just can't I can't put on eyelashes. I can't do all that. You know the

speaker-0 (1:01:54)

I have to say with time because I've had to really work on my relationship with my body and my appearance quite bit. And being online has been quite challenging from that perspective because you get all the comments, right? And the bigger the community, the further your reach. And so there'll always be periods of time I see an influx in my DMs and my comments about the way I look.

But what I will say is one thing I probably have an intrinsic knowing about is that to the point around sexiness and beauty, that is within me. That's not something that's on the outside, right? It's an essence, it's an energy. And now that I'm 37, I can acknowledge, especially because I've decided, you know, I've left the old religion where you can't really say these kinds of things, because obviously you're not trying to be sexy in that religion at all. But I know I'm sexy.

Erin Braxton (1:02:44)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (1:02:45)

But it's not because of the outside and usually when people are in my presence, and this is gender irrelevant, they feel that essence and energy. I don't have to put makeup on or wear a wig or straighten my hair in order to wield that energy. actually quite a lot of the time I know that if I did, I could, if I wanted to, right, I could play that game, but it's not really me. And I really do enjoy the fact that if people see me in real life on a Tuesday morning,

A Saturday, I look exactly the same. It's not catfish. are gonna say, my goodness, you look so different on a Tuesday morning. No, I look exactly the same.

Erin Braxton (1:03:18)

Yeah.

Yeah. But when I first talked to you several months ago and we got on that Zoom, it's like your your personality is like you're on there giving us the the the goods, you're this, but when you talk to when you're having a conversation, it's like your face lights up when it's your eye I was like, it's just so cute 'cause you were just like you know, a like a different person. So yeah, a lot of times people just have to be and you know, when you're on here people you know, they feel like they know you and they know you to a certain degree.

but they don't really know you, right? So people just, you know, it's just like

speaker-0 (1:04:02)

Some of the things obviously I talk about, there is a distinct difference. You if I did...

If I did meet the beauty standard in and outside of the black community, quite frankly, my words would be taken differently. You know, that's truthful. I observe other, ⁓ you know, content creators and individuals who share online. And if you do meet the beauty standard, you can say money doesn't come from men. can say that, you know, you want to be single and people don't think it's a desirability issue. It's a trauma issue. It's an insecurity issue because what they're looking at is someone that they would think, well, of course men would.

attracted to you, you're the one making the choice. Whereas what I've experienced is the same typical predictable boring thing of well no one wants you anyway so that's why you have to live this kind of life which is ironic because men are very easy. ⁓ So I know exactly what I would in a supermarket to walk down if I wanted a man to show me attention. It's not difficult. ⁓

Even in this state, it's really not difficult. I can get on a flight to Jamaica because if you go to Jamaica and not one man talks to you, it's because you're a corpse. So I never take these things personally because men are easy.

Erin Braxton (1:05:15)

Ladies, you need to go to Jamaica.

speaker-0 (1:05:17)

It's like, come on now, you know? Find a man that needs a visa or citizenship anywhere and you can get a man, people. So he'll tell you he loves you, he'll pretend. Like he will do all the things. So I think that I have to chuckle because I'm just like, people have just lost the plot on this.

Erin Braxton (1:05:41)

People I and I I I you know, I I beg to differ though with y what you said about, you know, if you looked a certain way, they would take it the what you're saying differently. Nobody comes onto TikTok and grows that fast. I mean, it is rare. So whoever

is listening, is liking and following you and you've attracted who you're supposed to be attracting, you know, like yes, you're not light skinned, curly hair, you know, like but I mean still beautiful woman. Like you see what I'm saying? And and and I get it 'cause I'm I get it.

speaker-0 (1:06:25)

Can't get it.

Erin Braxton (1:06:26)

I totally get it, right? And you know, 'cause sometimes you're looking at people and they're saying a whole lot of nothing. ⁓ Nothing. You know? ⁓ I mean just look what happened with ⁓ Doctor Bryant when Cheyenne B or not Sh well not Doctor, Cheyenne Bryant when she whatever went down with her.

speaker-0 (1:06:34)

No!

Erin Braxton (1:06:47)

And I don't even really talk about we c we kinda touched on it little bit when I had somebody on the podcast recently, but when darker skinned women try to say something it's just like lake the th there's the facts and then they're the facts. Right? You know, but it's just always gotta be

speaker-0 (1:07:06)

Yeah, and you know what, I've always known that, you know, women who meet the beauty standard, in or outside of the black community, but if you are looking in the black global community, as it were, ⁓ they have to filter through more nonsense. So I've always known that. In actual fact, they have to filter through a lot more nonsense than I do. And so that's not an extra load that I need in my life anyway, because they attract, as everyone does, types, but in a higher volume. And equally, some of these environments

you for example, you look at some of the media outlets that Cheyenne Bright has gone on, I wouldn't want to be in rooms with some of those people at all, because you can tell that she's a very beautiful woman, and that also means probably men are being unprofessional with her all of the time, despite the fact that she's probably there to share and exchange on something that is substantial. I don't want to have to navigate that all the time, personally.

Right, and I think these are some of the realities of meeting the beauty standard and being desirable, as it were, desirable. There are all sorts of other caveats that come with that, that I can't say that I envy or desire for myself.

Erin Braxton (1:08:17)

I think somebody said it. I I I I heard somebody said when you look a certain way, you're not challenged to and I I'm not saying this 'cause a lot of people are beautiful. Th this isn't true of everyone I'm before people say anything, but when you look a certain way, you're not necessarily challenged to create or develop cer a personality, right? And and then at a certain point

That's what you're gonna have to lean on when you don't have the youth and you don't have so yeah. So

speaker-0 (1:08:54)

I think that's probably more true in my opinion when it comes to navigating systems of power like the corporate workplace. I think that's definitely true when it comes to men because if you think about how most men are conditioned and programmed around the utility of a woman, it's not really about her intelligence. That is why you see the most misogynistic of man saying that they don't care about your accomplishments, they don't care about your education. What they care about is your utility as a woman, your womb.

Erin Braxton (1:09:02)

Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (1:09:21)

the domestic servitude, your sexual availability, and yes, your aesthetic desirability and attraction in their eyes and the men that they want to look at their partner. And so I think for men, your personality doesn't matter very much because your personality or your character rather, isn't what feeds those use cases for you as a woman. ⁓ But you're right, as you age, ⁓ and even if you're not opting into a relationship with a man, and I think even men,

who mature eventually realize that having a partner with a character is quite helpful. But of course, if they've chosen on the basis of aesthetics and utility only, that is why so many of tend to be dissatisfied in the long run.

Erin Braxton (1:09:55)

Yeah.

And and I'm gonna ask you this because we didn't talk about a coffee no cream moment. We didn't say anything about that. And I w I just wanna know if you've you've what you've experienced being 'cause you're obviously brilliant and on many levels, you know, ⁓ intelligent, successful, professional. You're a black woman, you're a dark skinned black woman, which I think

It it you know, t it is what it is. It's real, right? It's a true difference walking this earth, I think, in dark skin than it is even in medium brown, light brown skin, right? Light skin. ⁓ what have you experienced on your journey? Is it I would say even in your entrepreneurial journey or even in even in ⁓

Content creation, you can say it like what what have you experienced that you know you you attribute, like any stories or anything that can help people? 'Cause we try to help each other navigate these things. Not in a way to complain, but just, you know, 'cause sometimes you think you're crazy, like that just happened, you know.

speaker-0 (1:11:16)

You're not crazy.

I mean, I think there's probably two, this is what has been somewhat of an advantage for me of working for myself for nearly 10 years.

Because when you're selling to corporate organizations, it isn't really what you look like. You're doing a lot of direct sales activity, not marketing per se. And that has given me a bit of an edge where I haven't had to worry so much about what I look like, so to speak. Of course, I'll dress presentably and professionally when networking and when going on to client sites. But I would say working for myself has enabled me to be more of myself because I do corporate work. And the nature of my corporate work is that I'm behind the scenes.

I'm enabling senior stakeholders. So I don't even really need to be visible. I am advising them strategically. And so I can kind of hide and be myself. And what they need from me and what they're paying me for is what's in here. So I would say leaving the corporate workplace at the age I did probably helped. I'd have probably have more unpleasant experiences if I'd stayed in corporate for longer.

I would say obviously there's the usual things. When I used to go to see clients in person, especially when I had my car, because I love cars. And I've always driven quite big cars in recent years. And I would drive to a client's site and they would be like, who are you and why are you here and who are you here to see? They could not fathom that I was there to see anybody in that building, much less the CEO. So there were definitely times when I'd go on site.

that even the client, because we may only have interacted by email on the phone before, and then I turn up and they're like, you're a shanty. And so a lot of those kinds of situations have been mistaken for the cleaner, mistaken for a receptionist with a natural fact I'm the keynote speaker. That kind of stuff happened, I would say, quite a bit when I was in the UK, working in corporate.

⁓ And then when I went independent, just being mistaken for someone other than I actually am and knowing it's because of what I look like.

Erin Braxton (1:13:24)

And you just brush it off. You just

speaker-0 (1:13:26)

Because you know what, I'm getting paid, ⁓ The about me is I charge properly. So really and truly, you know, I don't mind, it's okay, whatever. When you're in business as well as you know, you've got to keep things ticking over and moving. So I also know I am incredibly good at what I do. I know that I'm in that top 2 % when it comes to what I do in corporates, and I get clients' results, they trust me. And so often,

Erin Braxton (1:13:29)

Yeah.

speaker-0 (1:13:54)

Even if I'm the second or third option, yeah, when they come back to me, they know why they're coming back to me. And so I don't care, I'll just, I'll sit and make my money. That's the way I always saw it. I think when it comes to content creation, yeah, I think I get a lot of DMs. Most of the time I have to say from black women and women of color and black men telling me I'm ugly. That's a big one. They seem to enjoy that quite a lot actually.

Erin Braxton (1:14:06)

I love it.

speaker-0 (1:14:24)

DMs and usually in the comments. And like I say, if I was prettier, if I was more aesthetically attractive or pleasing to the eye, I could sit there and say that a man should respect you. And probably people would take it more seriously. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It is what it is.

Erin Braxton (1:14:42)

can't understand, you know, that I did a I did a ⁓ episode about that and talked about how black women are so mean to each other and it's just like what is going on in your head where you would send another black woman with all the stuff we gotta deal with anyway. Yeah. That you would send her something like that and and and and say something rude. I think a lot of things when I'm scrolling, but I just

speaker-0 (1:15:09)

Keep scrolling.

Erin Braxton (1:15:10)

I just keep scrolling. You know, I would never sometimes it's like it's right there. I I've typed stuff out and then I've just not but not about people's looks. Just even about like y you know, just I just don't understand that. So it's been a conversation and it's sad because a lot of black women have they agreed with me and I was real nervous before I recorded that episode. I was just like ⁓ God. You know

speaker-0 (1:15:37)

you

I look, get the fact that, you we live in...

a world whereby people want to survive and people want to navigate the systems and they're going to stack the deck in their favor as much as they can. And beauty and appearance is part of that. And I think for black women assimilating as much as possible to either whiteness or what the black community believes to be beautiful is one of the ways you can do that. Especially if you are on the dating market and you want to attract a male partner. And if you want to further your career,

the way you look matters, the way you present yourself matters. so obviously women have, you know, internalized that as a lever, as a mechanism that they can pull in order to get to whatever level it is that they want to get to. I think since moving here, I see that really acutely. But then when I was in the UK, I didn't fit into all the business because in some of those business groups, the black women there got wigs on, makeup, know, nails done.

wearing certain clothes, that's just not my thing. Like I'm very much the kind of girl I love a good, thorough shower, like an everywhere shower. I come out, oil my body up, and then I'll put on some back to front, inside out pajamas. Like I'm super cool. Head scarf goes on, I'm good to go. Do you know what I mean? And so I'm really quite laid back in that regard. So I didn't ever really fit into a lot of the black business communities. Obviously the space I'm in is not beauty. I don't do pop culture.

I'm not doing music, I don't act, I'm not in fitness. So in a way, sometimes there isn't really a space for me in a lot of black business communities and black creative communities sometimes because that's not the space that I'm in.

Erin Braxton (1:17:26)

Well, you're definitely carving your own way out because you are doing amazing. ⁓ I wanna give you the opportunity to ⁓ share what you've got going on because I know you've got the community, I know you've got courses, you've got you've got the stuff. So I wanna give you the opportunity to talk about it because I think it's it could be life changing for many women.

speaker-0 (1:17:50)

You know, I think some of the most important things that I do is writing on the sub stack and then the longer form videos on YouTube. And so I would encourage people to kind of engage in that really. If you like reading on the sub stack, I talk about what it means to be an unpunishable woman, the single woman economy and what that looks like for us as single women with money. And then obviously there's YouTube if you prefer, kind of audio and longer form video.

Erin Braxton (1:18:17)

Are you still doing your y I know you were doing you had a sales course, you had

speaker-0 (1:18:22)

We had so much fun over a hundred women. ⁓ wow from all over the world. I taught them how to sell ⁓ Six weeks that was fantastic such a lovely experience So yeah, we do have some digital products, but as I say, I think most of the the framework stuff Definitely sub stack in YouTube

Erin Braxton (1:18:42)

Okay.

Okay. Well awesome. This has been awesome. I I'm I'm gonna have her back 'cause I've got I've got some some ideas and some some plans. So I'm I'm just so excited that we finally caught up with each other and you could come on. I just I'm very impressed with you. I have been since the first video that I ever saw. So I just am like, this girl she's got something. She's got something. Something obviously people are feeling your energy because

You're doing good. Good. Well, guys, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much, Ashanti, for coming and sitting and talking with me today. And we're we're gonna see you here again. So thanks so much, guys, and ⁓ we'll see you on the next episode.