Erin Braxton (00:00)

You have developed an app for black people to work through their microaggressions. What happened to you?

Pamela Gelie (00:08)

If you know the UK and the Brits, they're very politically correct. France lets you feel we can be very vocal and and very very direct. What do I respond to someone insulting me?

Erin Braxton (00:27)

Hey everyone, welcome to the Coffee No Cream Podcast. My name is Erin Braxton, and I'm the host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, we're unapologetically dedicated to Black women, and we share what I like to call Coffee No Cream moments, those things that happen to us black women in business and in life just because we are black women. Now, today we have Pamela Jelly, and she is an innovator from France. It's our

First French guest here on the podcast. And Pamela has developed an app called URI where we are able to use AI to help us uncode, decode microaggressions. You know, we've talked about this at length on the podcast. And a lot of times when

We don't have other people we can go to. We don't have other people we can talk to. Maybe we're not in therapy and we're struggling dealing with the BS that happens on these jobs. We just want a solution or some understanding. Her app has done what I wish I would have had at one point or another. Sometimes it's like, am I crazy? Is that what I think it is?

The app does that. She has she has developed this thing. It has been designed around much research, therapeutic modalities, and it is the real deal. A lot of people are skeptic AI. This is innovation that is used in the right way. And the way that she has developed it is to not use the bias of the world, using

Her own input research as a black person in the diaspora. So really, really cool. Stick around, take a look. We're gonna look at the app together, show you how it how it works, how you can use it, start using it today. Before we get into it though, guys, please like, please share, please subscribe. definitely leave me a comment. You know, I love the comments. I engage, I read all of the comments. The comments help me figure out what's next.

We've got the Facebook group. The link is below. We've got the free educational resource database with almost 2,000 free resources. that link is below. So that's it. That's it. So let's get into my discussion with Pamela from Paris. And she is going to share her microaggression app called URIS. I'll see you over there. So, Pamela, welcome to Coffee No Cream. How are you today?

Pamela Gelie (03:22)

I'm very good. Thank you. How are you?

Erin Braxton (03:25)

great. You are going to be our first guest from France. You live in Paris? Do you live in

Pamela Gelie (03:31)

Live

in Paris, yes absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.

Erin Braxton (03:34)

I am excited about this because you have developed a app for an app for black people to work through their microaggressions, right? And and

Pamela Gelie (03:49)

Yeah.

Erin Braxton (03:50)

it uses AI, and we're gonna get into that in a minute. But I get a lot, I've gotten comments across the diaspora to indicate that.

These problems black women are having are only in the United States and your app and what you've created is just proof that that is not the case. So tell us about yourself. How what happened to you and why what happened to you to make you know there was a need to create an app to address the microaggressions that black people are dealing with in the workplace?

Pamela Gelie (04:27)

Yes, very good question. So I was born in in France, many, many, many years ago, from Afro Caribbean parents. And and so it's always been the case that, you know, as a dark skinned person in France, you don't fully belong. But then when you go to the Caribbean or Africa anyway, you don't fully belong because you you were not born there and did not live there. So that that's always been something, you know, the back of my mind, how do you fit in? How

But what does that look like to actually feel like you fully belong? And so that's a little bit part of the journey I'm I'm kind of building for myself. and I after studying, I moved to the UK for a second degree. I then went back to France and realized I just need to go back to the UK. There was there was a vibe, there was a sense of freedom, you know, maybe it had to do with my age, but something where you know that feeling where.

You can be out of the box. You know, France is very much about boxes. You have to conform and you have to comply to certain codes in certain ways. The UK felt very very freeing from that perspective. And so I worked there for over 10 years, 11 years. And I came back to France after being headhunted for a you know very big position. and that's kind of where it all started, as in

Because you know the UK, if if you know the UK and the Brits, they're very politically correct, and I'm saying hi to them, I love them, but very politically correct. There is something about them that's kind of very graceful. You know, we don't bring it up, we're not confrontational, we don't say to people's face, which other cultures can see as being very hypocrite, right? But France is very it's is very different. Frank let France lets you feel when something is not going

And you've seen it, I suppose, with the last few days of protest, you know, we we just go and fight our cause and we can be very vocal and and very very direct in in that sense. and so with that big position, with quite a few people I suppose feeling like, why her? Why me? Why not why not me actually? Why a woman like this? I did feel

I did feel the threats and and the disapprovals of people because of my skin color, as in why not me? What makes you feel like I'm not up for the job and I'm not a good good choice for it? And and a lot of the conversations I could hear and overhear were leading me to to understand that you know there was something about how can someone like you have that kind of position and how could someone like you have been chosen for that?

for that for that sort of job. And and that kind of pushed me to

towards therapy, which is something I have always wanted to do, by the way. Never had, I suppose, the financial means to really to really do it. And that position was perfect because I always thought, okay, my daughter is two, you know, I want to kind of break you know, the d generational trauma and be the the best version of myself. I need to go into a place where I can decode emotions and and also, you know, go deep down into childhood traumas, wh whatever they could be, to try and and make sure I don't repeat.

anything that that's that's been bad in in the past. but I was literally feeling a sense of paranoia. I could see people talking about me, pointing me, criticizing me. Was it completely true or not? It was definitely true to some extent. I don't know about the volume of it, but in my head I was like, I'm just going crazy. I do feel like

You know, I don't belong, and people don't want me there and make me feel like I don't belong. And that's when I started therapy to really start to understand where those emotions were coming from. how do I fight them? How do I overcome them? How do I face microaggressions which have always existed even in the UK, but are so visible and so palpable in in in France. And and so I went through a few

you know, methods like C B T and N L P to really try and reframe you know, my thinking and and mindset. and so that's a few years later, maybe ten years later, when I felt more equipped with tools to fight those you know those those microaggressions and and and this racial bias but but still it was very, very

you know, existent, very again, palpable,

Very obvious. And that's when I that's about the time when I started my MBA. So I started an MBA about two years ago, which gave me a very good look into what it's like to set up a business, what it's like to be innovative with an idea, what it's like to go from a concept and then put it through to you know a business venture that that can actually be successful. And with that in mind, I thought, you know what?

Here's my journey, here those are my trauma and my backgrounds, and here I have tools to run a business and and get something off the ground. Why don't I actually create something that I would have loved to have for myself years back when I was so struggling with, you know, people pointing fingers and and criticizing me and making subtle comments? And and that's really how

my journey with creating the app started.

Erin Braxton (10:25)

Okay, let me ask you if you can discuss it, 'cause I'm gonna ask you a specific situation. But before that, what was the big position? Like what were you doing? What was your role?

Pamela Gelie (10:37)

So

I was so I was not a C suite, but I was reporting to the board. and and I was the only person at my level in an organization big of five thousand, six thousand, which probably is not that big for the US.

Erin Braxton (10:51)

No, that's big organization.

Pamela Gelie (10:52)

It feels very big in

in in in Paris. the headquarters were in Paris. there was maybe a handful of us in the entire organisation and I was the only one at that kind of level, which is a level everybody was looking at, 'cause after me you d there was there was the board and and and C suite. yeah.

Erin Braxton (11:12)

Okay. So, can you give us an example? we call it coffee no cream moments. There's obviously something 'cause like I I I was telling you before we started recording, people have commented that

the problems that we have are only problems in America. These are not problems that we're having across the diaspora diaspora. I know this is not true. So give give give us an example 'cause I love that you I love that you set it up and said British people are more, I guess, polite about it. Yeah. And and French people are more direct.

Pamela Gelie (11:48)

So Yeah, yeah. so an an example I I have I have many, but one that I like to tell and and that comes to mind is a peer. So someone not in my team but someone somebody else at my level.

we were talking about suits and and my my husband or myself we wanted to to buy new suits. I don't remember which one of us, but we were looking for for a new suit and I was asking for a few recommendations of shops and that I was going to go this weekend to buy a you know a very nice suit for a meeting coming and and so on. And that person gave me a couple of suggestions and then said, but there is nothing on sales at the moment.

And right away I felt like, why are you telling me that? I mean, what do you know of my financial situation? What do you know about the the money, the funds I I have? but it felt very natural to that person, very as in here is me for sure with the financial means and you let me just somehow perhaps put it down put it put you back

to where you belong and and to that kind of box where you probably don't have that sort of money to buy to buy a suit. Although we we both work in a very, you know, big multinational company, but that kind of it's not it's not even a stereotype because those people knew me, but it's more about making you feel like less done. Right? That that's that's that's the feeling really I got out of it.

Erin Braxton (13:25)

Is your response to the microaggressions in the UK different than your response to the microaggressions in France due to the the nature of how people just interact with one another?

Pamela Gelie (13:42)

Yeah, absolutely. in in in the UK you you really have to be at the same level as them. So you there is no raising your voice, there is no, you know, shouting and being too confrontational. but but they but there are ways of reporting it to HR or to or to to other people. So you you really have to stay respectful in in the UK of the process and

you know I said something you disagree we can speak to someone about it it's that that kind of thing in France it feels more confidential but you you do need to know what to say you know how do you how do you respond because the challenge when you when you work in a company is if you say too much you can shoot yourself in the foot if you don't say enough then you it eats you up over time and then people you know start again and and do it again over

Because you say nothing, and sometimes you say nothing because you just want to protect yourself, as in I'm just not gonna mingle with this and and I'm going to protect my peace. And other times, often people are like, I just don't know what didn't know what to say, and that was my actually my my my my situation. I I looked at the person, I did not know what to say. What do I respond to someone insulting me?

And kind of implying I don't have the means to buy a suit when I absolutely know they would never say that to another person looking like that. And so sometimes you're so gupsmatched, you don't have yeah, you you you don't have the strategies and and and the words and

the levels as well of what you can say and how far you can go so that it doesn't backfire on you as the angry black woman or aggressive black man. So it it takes it takes quite a bit of know how I found to kind of get this right in front.

Erin Braxton (15:47)

What what did you say to that guy?

Pamela Gelie (15:51)

I know that's not the sales right now. Yeah. Yeah. As in I know. I wish I had been able to say more. I

Erin Braxton (15:59)

Yeah.

Pamela Gelie (15:59)

wished I had

I suppose the confidence as well and the grounding to be like, uh-uh, that's a microaggression, red flag, those are the things I can say, right? Sometimes you you're not even sure, like are they making conversations, are they are they tired, are they you you just don't know. Today I very well know what a microaggression looks like, what racial bias looks like, and that's also what the app I built is is meant to educate you about.

Erin Braxton (16:31)

So before we get into more conversation on the app, because you w were raised in France. So was your upbringing multicultural in France or were you around more just Afro Caribbean? Are you are you mixed with white people? What was that like?

Pamela Gelie (16:51)

A

a little bit of both, I think, when I was a child, because a lot of the people we knew, my that my parents knew, who also came to France to work. although the West Indies in I mean the islands they're from in France are French. They really came in France as as immigrants for for work. And so all of the people they came with, they knew each other, and it was a time when they were having baptisms and and kids and weddings and and so up until ten

12 we were very much surrounded by people like us, people we knew, because there were parties, there were gatherings, there were reasons to gather and be together. Afterwards, when I moved into private school, I was the only one, you know, very much in the school, in the class, in in my class for sure. In the school, there could have been maybe another person like me, maybe two max.

So yeah, very lonely places with with no one who looks like you to look up to and and feel grounded and powerful with.

Erin Braxton (17:58)

Yeah, no, I I I was I don't know what all you know about me in particular, but I was raised always in primarily w in and I went to school in primarily white institutions and in primarily white neighborhoods just 'cause our parents moved us out there. And I think a lot of people will comment about

A lot of people's first interaction with white people and these microaggressions might come when they get into the workplace, depending on how they were raised, right? So, like having dealt with it from such a young age, I feel like yeah, so used to it, got it. Understand in a different way. So when you're met with them by the time you're grown out of college.

out of university, it's just kind of shocking. And even I feel like even in school, a little protected things happen to me for sure. But when when you get out of school and you're working in an organization and especially when you're like young and then it's like

You know, before you had teachers, this you know, they they they couldn't get into it with you. But when you're working, it's just like these are like older, powerful people or something like that in an organization. You just look at them differently. There's like no nowhere to go with it. You know what I'm saying? So it just it feels a little bit different. And when microaggressions happen to you, I think sometimes when you've not been around

th in those s sorts of environments, you are just like you said, like gobsmacked. You are like, do that was that? Like, am I crazy? You know, and the and when you're the only one up in there who who you don't even have like a friend and to talk to. And if you think you have a white friend, then most likely not.

Pamela Gelie (19:58)

Most likely not, yeah. Yeah, as I said it it does it does feel it does feel very lonely. and also because quite often you don't have the codes and so you're trying to

almost de dupe yourself into somebody else who can fit in and be accepted and so it's it's it's this invisible workload I always talk about as in it's not just about being at school and doing well. It's it's you know trying to fit in and trying to overcome those those aggressions and especially when when when when you're young and kids, they can be ruthless, right? I could hear any all sorts of things and

Yeah, it's it's it's very challenging. Can be very challenging.

Erin Braxton (20:46)

Okay, so you went to therapy. Therapy obviously worked. You must have enjoyed it. It helped you.

Pamela Gelie (20:54)

Still enjoy it, yeah. Still I don't think it's something that you step into and then stop. You know, I I feel personally the minute you're born, it's you you're confronted to so many different things that you are probably not meant to, you know, process but but by yourself because you know they're they're just come like it's the people, it's the things, it's the events, and and so I feel like it's something you always need to be doing.

Erin Braxton (21:22)

Yeah.

Pamela Gelie (21:23)

It there's nothing healthy.

in my opinion to like leave your big heavy suitcases somewhere, open them up and and you know undo them with someone. so yeah I'll probably do that until I can until I'm no longer on this earth.

Erin Braxton (21:39)

Did you find black therapists?

Pamela Gelie (21:43)

List of black therapists. I haven't contacted one yet because I'm working on on something with the current one, although the current one is not leucoderma, so it's she's she's not white. She is Asian and so she's a bit of an in-between as in she understands you know the aggressions and the bias because she's she experiences them as well as an Asian woman.

But yeah, as soon as I'm done with the work I I'm doing, I think next one, 'cause you can change and you should change actually, therapist along your along your journey. I'll definitely, definitely go for a black therapist.

Erin Braxton (22:27)

So

tell us about the app. Tell us about your thinking behind it, how you developed it, how you worked it all out. Because I love I love AI and I don't, you know what I'm saying? But yeah. So this is very, very fascinating.

Pamela Gelie (22:51)

Yes,

so the creation of it started of course with with my journey and I cannot recall for the life of me exactly when I had the idea, but I think I was I was very much in class during my MBA and and

you see case studies and the more you hear teachers and and you see also entrepreneurs and and companies come in and talk to you and you think wow it just started with something very simple and very little and here's you know how it it you know how big it got and and it it really helped me think about all the things all the problems I probably had around me and in my life that I could just perhaps create something for and and make it a business.

and I thought about the most impactful

you know, thing I would probably need, you know, beyond like project management tools and and how to keep track of, you know, your your your agendas and and your kids' agendas or whatever. But having a place where I can at any time speak to someone who looks like me and understands me and has been through what I'm going through and get a very informed

Rational, precise, contextualized response to help me in those situations that are very structural. They'll never go away. You know, so long as as you live in in in places that are you know white dominated or dominated by people who don't look like you, you are going to be the victim of of those people trying to stay dominant, right?

And so I started talking to people. So there's me, okay. Is that just me? Could other people, you know, feel that need and and and find

Solas in in such in such a solution. And so I ran interviews in France, but interviews in the UK and in the US. Dozens, literally dozens on the phone all the time. you know, asking them questions, which was very interesting because I have a background in market research. That that's actually what I did my first dissertation in in in back in the UK. And so I know how to ask questions that are not leading and that are going to get me answers. And so I was able overnight to just get, you know,

really good questionnaire in place and started to just run those conversations and understand what is missing today for for people and what are the most you know emotionally impactful things that happen to them and you know where do they find comfort today and where would they love to find comfort so things like that to really try and narrow down perhaps a couple of of of of directions and

That's literally how I build the app, talking to people, putting the human at the center of it. And so as much as it's run with AI, to to help you process you know, the the the answers and the recomm recommendations, it's it's a hundred percent human in in in essence.

Erin Braxton (26:13)

Okay, so you mentioned that you did work with professional therapists on the app, so talk about that a little bit 'cause, you know, I just it sounds like 'cause I I just wanna I wanna cover all questions for people who might be a little skeptics, you know, before we take a look. So

Pamela Gelie (26:35)

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

absolutely. so so again, if you think about this product almost being like we were talking b before starting and I have two kids, this feels like my third child, literally, because it it it comes from everything.

you know, from my past journey. So it has, you know, the racial trauma and microaggressions and bias. But it also has the therapy element which is which has been so it has saved me because, you know, those days when I was starting to get paranoid

And I wanted to quit and I was like, I'm not where I should be, imposter syndrome, and I had all those very rough thoughts. Therapy literally saved me. And so when I built this, I was like, it's not just gonna be something where people can detangle and decode those aggressions and find a route to handle them. I also feel like as a community we deserve this kind of extra care and TLC, which we deny to ourselves, you know, because it's it's cultural, you know, I'm not

I'm not weak, not vulnerable, very strong, and and I'm not making that to be a general truth truth. Some people are not, but I know a lot of people who look like me who are, you know, against anything that has to do with mental health. And and it's you know, can't blame them, they're very cultural. It's it's also potentially ingrained in in our DNA. We we can see that with epigenetic these days.

But I was like, still, you know you may not be convinced today, but let me still embed those techniques that I know work and that I've seen you know, very powerful studies about in in the app. And so there is things like CBT and NLP, which help you without you really knowing and realizing, but the responses you get from the chat actually make you less of the victim and makes you less of the person responsible, as in it's

not about you and it's not personal, it's them and it helps you really reframe the problem. And I I was extremely I was very passionate about us

We need to stop the pain. I I I I if there's one thing I would love for our community is let's stop the suffering because it's constant. It's every day, it's in everything. And if we can for a second, you know, above and beyond all the hate or whatever we receive, be convinced that it has nothing to do with me. Nothing to do with me. And so that's the care I've I've embedded in in in the app to kind of

Yeah, nurture ourselves a little bit.

Erin Braxton (29:27)

So for those people who are not familiar with therapy, CBT, what is that? Cognitive behavioral therapy? Cognitive

Pamela Gelie (29:34)

And L L P

is a neurolinguistic programming, reprogramming.

Erin Braxton (29:39)

Okay, okay. so I mean I would love to see it and wait, let me ask one more question. Yes. so this app is intended for individuals to use freely and not intended for use at or within the workplace. Is that correct?

Pamela Gelie (30:05)

Absolutely. I do not want I don't I don't feel right now companies would make the best use of it. because there's probably very little interest.

Erin Braxton (30:19)

Yeah.

Pamela Gelie (30:20)

But still, you know, the the damage and the pain still occurs in organizations. So I do feel it needs to go to individuals first, like you, me, others need to be able to have at a fingertip help.

that we need advice, guidance, tips, and the only ways it would go into a company's hands would be for training.

And awareness bringing around, for instance, and conscious bias. And I I could see a place where some of the data, anonymized of course, could be used. Hey, here's a scenario of something that happened to someone, and those are the things we need to avoid. Or here's a situation that someone in the past has experienced, and here are the tips, the tips and advice we need to make sure it doesn't happen to other people. So that that could be one very tiny scenario where companies could be.

could be using URIs, but it's first and foremost for individuals, yes.

Erin Braxton (31:26)

Okay,

well let's take a look at it. we can get this going. Okay.

Pamela Gelie (31:29)

Yeah, sure. Perfect.

So I think I've mentioned that my background is in customer experience.

That's what I've spent most of my career. So the app is very easy in design. You have the chat, my incidents, SOS scripts and plans. You first land into into the chat where you're greeted. And and maybe just for illustration, I'm I'm just showing here how the engine in the background works and what I've built. So you have on the left hand side the whole retrieval, the rag process where the system

Looks at all the discussions I had with individuals, all the scenarios, all the dimensions, and uses that as a reference point to write up the answer. So unlike ChatGPT or Gemini, and literally if you type the exact same thing in Gemini or ChatGPT and in

And in your eyes, you are going to get in your eyes an answer that's contextualized in the experience that you, as the individual you are, as in black brown, is living and and the system will understand the nuance of it. Chat GPT and and Gemini will not, and they'll probably say, Hey, that comment was a joke, that's okay, do the same thing tomorrow, right? They're going to really make it very trivial and and and simplify it when we know that.

A lot more at stake. So not to say that the system will always tell you that's a microaggression, but it's going to understand where you're coming from, ask you questions to probe and understand the context as much as possible, and then give you a number of routes and and directions. So left hand side is where we look at all the data and all the reference points, and then right hand side is where we have the the therapeutic

sort of therapy techniques.

Erin Braxton (33:31)

Let me ask you a question. So

you you're talking about rag, and basically you mean the research, the resources that AI is pulling from when they go to find an answer. So typically if you're using ChatGPT or Claude or Gemini or something like that, they can scour everything that's available to them. And you're saying Urise

only looks at the conversations that you've had, like your own your own research is what you're saying.

Pamela Gelie (34:10)

absolutely yes. Church PTR Gemini is going to so a look at the entire scope of data available on the internet and then also because we know who are the people designing the algorithm, they may even add layers of instructions that satisfy their needs, right? So so there's it's almost like a double bias. It's first an entire universe of data, not at all refined, not at all specific.

And then because the people who build this tend to be the sort of people that we know, they're also going to add that bias which excludes the needs and the views of people like like you and me. And and and URIC, of course, is built from people like me for people like me, and so that it gives you the specificities that that we need and understand.

Erin Braxton (35:04)

I love it. And also question. as we progress, as we keep advancing and things like that, will more research be added or will it just is it going to learn from what it's put what's put in it? I'm just asking from an AI perspective, like 'cause I'm learning more about this myself. is it going to I guess I forget the terminology. Yes.

Pamela Gelie (35:34)

It it it actually almost auto-learns and so the more people use it, the more it's going to get enriched with those people's situations and feedback and the more it's going to benefit than the other people c coming afterwards. So it's not static as in research done and that is it. It lives with the the data that's incoming to it every day and gets trained and enhanced with it.

Erin Braxton (36:03)

And and how do we prevent cause this is always a question because there's people trolling around trying to sabotage things like that. How do we how do you prevent people from coming in and and and and adding to its learning from people that are not who we would want to be adding to the learning?

Pamela Gelie (36:33)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well there there is there is a step where and it is like that at the moment, if ever we get to the millions of users, we'll have to think of a of a different system. But at the moment I manually review every single new situation and piece of feedback. And so I'm the one actually screening and filtering through every new story, every new request to understand if it can be let through the system and and and and trained the rest of the

system or not. Okay. Yeah, and and as

Erin Braxton (37:05)

Okay. Yeah. That's it. Okay, go on.

Pamela Gelie (37:08)

I'm as I'm telling you all of this, I'm like I cannot believe I built all of this, but yes I did. It's it's phenomenal.

Erin Braxton (37:14)

And when you're building things, I know as somebody who builds things, when you're building it's amazing you you think you're gonna start off this way, but then all this other information comes to you and you g yeah, so you should definitely be impressed with yourself. Okay, go on.

Pamela Gelie (37:32)

Yes, yes, yes, quite quite satisfied. Yes, thank you. And then yes, as I said, on the right hand side is where you have the the the CBT and and NLP, so the the therapy techniques and also

the the part where the system helps you decode the actual microaggression. Because it's very interesting. I I was telling you about that that time when someone asked me if if I knew that there were no sales because I wanted to go and buy a suit. In the evening we had dinner with some friends, so my husband and I, and we told them about that story. And all of them literally, it's okay.

Erin Braxton (38:15)

White people.

Pamela Gelie (38:17)

is

just a common no people like us. And that that tells you that so we we were just back from the UK and so we had that ten, fifteen years of being out of it. And so when you come back to it you're like, that's a big no. But because they had always been there and never left France, they have started to normalize it. And so when when I built the the the the D app URISE, I was very keen on making sure that there is a part where the microaggression is explained, it's decoded because it's

No okay. It should not be okay. And most of the time we don't recognize it because it's so internalized. We don't even know it's happening. and so that's everything here that's happening on the right hand side to get us to the answer. And so there's a lot going on. It takes really three seconds for the system to to answer, but that's everything that happens in in in the back end, and then the system starts to

To give you guidance, as I said, it names what's happening to you, it explains to you why it may be happening, it gives you courses of action for now and for later. And then you're free to, of course, you know, ask as many questions as you want. It's it's it's it's a chat. but it's it's very specific and very knowledgeable in how far we should go, given, of course, what we're going through.

Erin Braxton (39:41)

Yeah, that's a good lead to my next question is what is the line between a microaggression and actual discrimination and can the app distinguish between those?

Pamela Gelie (39:57)

The app is going to distinguish between between them. the way it's framed, and it's not me and it's not even the the interviews and all the research around saying it, but the discrimination is really when you're being bypassed for an opportunity or not considered based on who you are and what you look. So not based on your work and your achievements and potentials and capabilities, but based on

based on on your ethnicity and gender, et cetera. And so when you give this kind of details to the app, it is going to be able to tell you this definitely needs to go to HR and you need to you need to complete a report, document it, record it and take it to your next to your next meeting, or it's going to give you guidance to just say something verbally and then see if it happens again, document it and and so on. So it it will

Definitely be able to distinguish between the two and give you different levels of of response depending on the severity and the risk.

Erin Braxton (41:06)

I was just gonna b ask you about documentation. So perfect.

Pamela Gelie (41:10)

Yes,

yes. So as you've had your your exchanges with with the chat, so Ayana is is is her name. and you exchange, Ayana automatically fills up a report for you. So you can at any point either ask her here, can you draft the report or go right away into on on the left hand side into my incidence and you will see your your your various reports filled up and so here it's retrieved, you know, what's happened

Was involved, were there witnesses, what was said, etc. And it usually asks you for more for more details. So the report is as complete as possible. You can click on the button review and finalize, and it will take you to the my incidence part of the app where you have your histories or all your previous reports, and you can click on the on the latest one, which is that conversation, edit it if you want. So add the date, add add more details, fine-tune it.

So you have as much record as possible because a lot of those things really boils down to having proofs, right? You know, when someone says, Well, it was it was nothing, you can actually come with a piece of paper and say, actually, it happens that date with those people, and because otherwise we we completely dismiss those things and and with time we're like I just want to protect my peace, I won't I won't try and and and go back to it and find the details. But here.

there's a system who does it for you automatically because we know the pain of it later and and that that saves you not only a lot of time but also a lot of gives you a lot more am ammunition to to to hold important discussions.

Erin Braxton (42:56)

No, this is awesome. I actually I didn't realize it did all of that. And I I I I do wanna ask though, as part of Ayana's response to you, for example, we were talking about this, it'll be an episode when by the time this airs the episode will have been two weeks ago, talking about how black women dress in the workplace and you know, being harassed if you dress too well, you know.

or the constant questions about our hair, things like that, you know. And we have we have things like the Crown Act in the United States to help protect against those types of discriminations. But my question is when you get your response and and maybe this is in the plans, I don't know if this is already there because it you've done a lot of work. This is awesome. Thank you. Do do

Does she give you back okay because of this or or any sort of I guess laws or legal I don't know my words, to to help you understand because just like you said, there is the line between microaggression and discrimination. And when it's discrimination, does she give you

kind of a roadmap and the explanation on why and how that's wrong and this is what backs up my response about this.

Pamela Gelie (44:35)

No, it's not going to act as as a lawyer for you and and that's something I was very specific in in in trying not to go into because then it's it's it's a lot of complex. Yes.

Erin Braxton (44:45)

Yeah.

Pamela Gelie (44:48)

So the low and then being a therapist so as a a s a psych you know, a th proper therapist, th those are things that I

wouldn't want people to feel that Ayana and Urise can do. They're here to give guidance and they're here to accompany and and they're here to give direction. but for for for instance when you're into Ayana and and

You you may be saying, I've had enough, or that's too much, when is it ever gonna stop? that triggers automatically numbers for you to call you know, a hotline so that you can seek help in your country. So France, the UK, the US, there there are specific numbers that pull up that we advise you to call if ever you know we have a list of maybe sixty, seventy keywords where we feel the situation is getting

and someone is is is maybe coming to to to the end with you know what's bearable those those numbers pull up but that's really where we stop. So we stop there for the the therapy or mental health part and for the low

the the legal part we also say HR but then it stops there. What do you want to do afterwards? That's going to be with with another party.

Erin Braxton (46:13)

So in a

situation such as that, like say I'm being targeted, somebody wrote on one of our comments that they they were targeted or it was brought up that they were wearing blonde braids, you know, and you know, maybe comments about it or whatever continually. These are microaggressions. And the app would then tell you, give me like

Kind of a s kind of an idea of I don't I know we're not doing it live, but what kind of assistance would it help me feel better about my decisions? Would it help me see that the issue is not with me, it's with them, you know, that kind of thing.

Pamela Gelie (47:01)

Yes, it's it's going to very much rationalize it. As as I said, why would you need to change and and it's very much what we hear in in today's conversations, why do you need to be changing your hairstyle to feel like you're fitting in? You you know, your brain is what does the work. It's not your hair, it's not the color of your nails, it's not of course don't come, you know, to to a corporate environment maybe in jeans. You know, we know what the sort of codes are, but not nothing to do with the hair. And so

It helps you being very rational about this and it's not on you, it's on them. you know, within reason of course, if if there is something that that jumps and there is obviously nonsense, di it will tell you at the end of the day AI

you know, powers it. So it it will it will tell you that's not making sense. But anything within reason of I'm a person and I'm doing nothing wrong, the the system will tell you stop there, think about it. this is what we would advise and this is what you should be doing next. but within the humanity of you as a human being.

Erin Braxton (48:10)

Right. Very cool. I feel like you know, a lot of people and this is this is a nice first step. because black people have been always hesitant to seek out therapy because it's just not what we've done and it's becoming more and more sought after by

you know, black women, black people in general, it's like, okay, we're this is you know, 'cause it's can be a wonderful thing, right? When you find the right therapists and everything like that. So for those of us who just need a quick something who have have it in our pocket, you know, and they just wanna kinda work it through because it's so stressful.

Pamela Gelie (49:00)

Absolutely,

yeah. we we're seeing that a lot of people use and we've seen very sad stories of course with you know the very young you know part of of the audience like teenagers and and apps and and and AIs that are not very

sensible and looking out for them, which is not the case here. And of course we're targeting a a much more mature audience as well. But yeah, pe pe pe people with the lives we live, people do want more immediate

you know, feedback and and help as opposed to, you know, calling up your therapist, which is a very conscious decision, like let's make an appointment for a week. I'm gonna take notes every day and we can discuss. Sometimes you just need something on the spot. Something happens, is about to happen. You have a meeting you know, tomorrow to prepare, you need help on on the spot. And also as I was doing the the the research and having all of those conversations, a lot of the people I spoke to were saying

I'm feeling very uncomfortable looking into someone's eyes and you know, telling my problems because again it goes a little bit against nature for for for people like us and for the community where we we've always been taught to be strong and and not show your emotions. Having to l you know, sit in an office and speak, open up your heart and look someone in the eye can be very uncomfortable. That that's that's the feedback I got from most of the people I spoke to. And so something

like this means that you're not gonna feel ever you're being judged, you're not gonna feel like someone is commenting on what you're doing. It's very factual, it's very objective and it's in your interest.

Erin Braxton (50:52)

People are very concerned about privacy. So can you talk about the tactics that you guys take to ensure people's privacy when using ERIS?

Pamela Gelie (51:01)

Yeah. So of course I would not recommend for for people but just like with other AIs and L L Ms to you know give very specific details. So I would refrain from saying I work for Coca Cola and my boss is Jack Samuel and he's twenty eight and so anything

Erin Braxton (51:23)

Right.

Pamela Gelie (51:25)

personal you can leave it out, but you can absolutely say

This is what's happening to me and I work in this multinational and the the the the feedback that that URIS and Ayana will give you doesn't require a lot of detail and and this doesn't sit on any service apart from of course DAI that's powering it. And so it's on your phone, it's on your laptop, it's on your tablet, it's it's completely yours. but it is

It is general guidance to not give

very private details as in names and addresses for instance just like you do with with other AIs. After you've edited your report you can export it and it's going to come up as a PDF. Very simple, but at least you have a record for every incident as you want that you can save somewhere and refer to. And then the final part of the app is the SOS scripts. If you don't have time to actually chat with Ayana but you just want help

Here and there, we have over forty scenarios and situations categorized and also

And also broken down by level that you can that you can refer to. So if the person was a peer, you're gonna get a different guidance if it's a manager, if it's an executive, and if it's an HR. So you have different gradients of tones and conversations you may want to be having by themes and and categories of aggressions and bias you may be going through.

Erin Braxton (53:12)

Smart,

smart, so yes.

Pamela Gelie (53:16)

Yes, and that that is it. So in terms of access you can access the the tool from we have a website so Urise now dot com and also the app at Urise now dot com and it's a freemium

It's a premium service and so you can go in and start using it for free. we we did want people to being able to feel and get a feel for the tool and what you can get out of it before asking for card details and payment. and so you have a month to be using it, you have one situation and five scripts you can you can use, and after that it goes into into paid service.

Erin Braxton (54:06)

I just wanna thank you so much for coming on. I think this is this is exactly the type of innovation black women should be doing. I mean and are doing, right? I I think that a l I've I've done a few talks and I've I even talk about and it it'll be in the episode that actually we're recording on a Wednesday, so episode goes out today. And I talk about AI

a lot in that episode and it's come up quite a bit and some of us are so skeptical of it and and you know, as the big AI giants are are arguing up there about this and that and the third, using it for good like this is is wonderful. I think it's just so innovative and maybe there'll be another time where we can talk about the business of it because I've

You know, I'm an entrepreneur as well and I love to talk to black women about, you know, just what it really is to I mean, I know you touched on it a little bit, but what it really is to start a business like this. And a lot of people are very interested, and I might be doing I might do something totally separate for that because

We'll see, but a lot of people a lot of black women are trying to figure out what their next move is. you know, AI should be a consideration for anything that anybody's gonna do in twenty twenty six. So, you know, you having this background now and having created this is really impressive. So

Pamela Gelie (55:49)

Yeah,

absolutely. And and if anything, if if there's one piece of advice I could give to women is just start because you know, it's just like my MBA everything

Erin Braxton (56:01)

My god.

Pamela Gelie (56:02)

else, you know. I spent forever thinking, should I do an MBA or not? I have a three year old, I can't do it too much and then once you're in it, you find a way. But just start. Start and start small and as you progress you

you know where to expand, where to move, where to pivot and it and it will just happen. So start ladies, start.

Erin Braxton (56:23)

It it's true. And I think i the fear of getting over the the the the little threshold of not doing something to the threshold of that gets you from not doing it to doing it is like the biggest challenge. And then the more you get into it, you just get more and more confident.

Pamela Gelie (56:44)

Yeah. Absolutely. And I as much as it's your biggest challenge, it's also your biggest opportunity. Because most certainly if there's fear, there's growth, you know, coming for you as well. You know, there's something where you're going to again expand and learn. And so if you if you're scared it's fine. Do it with the fear. Take the fear with you. Just just take it with you and go.

Erin Braxton (57:04)

'Cause if

it doesn't work out, you know what? You learn something. So yeah.

Pamela Gelie (57:08)

Yeah, if you still better off,

yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Erin Braxton (57:11)

Well, Pam, thank you so much for joining us. This has been very informative. I love this kind of stuff. And I definitely recommend you guys check this out because I've never seen anything like it. You're the first of its kind, I'm sure. I I haven't heard about this. And and I love the research that you did, the way you programmed it. Yeah the whole theory behind it is it's well done. So

Pamela Gelie (57:37)

Yeah, yeah. And and we we need we need more of this stuff. We need, you know, especially with AI, we need it also framed from our perspective. There's too much of it that's from the others' perspective. So let's just go and and and also, you know, get represented.

Erin Braxton (57:54)

It's so true. I know this is a digression, but I was I asked AI one time 'cause I wanted to do some research and start really doing like African history research. Yeah. And I asked I don't remember Chad or Claude about the possibility of African people being

on the continent of North America before Christopher Columbus. And he of course absolutely said no, right? But there's there it's been debunked already like so many times. You know what I'm saying? So it's true. Yes. Yes,

Pamela Gelie (58:31)

Yeah.

Erin Braxton (58:33)

it's absolutely true. So

Getting this kind of information into a system where people have access to it is very, very important because everybody's not gonna go and look at the archives and and all of the things. This is how people are getting their information now. So

Pamela Gelie (58:51)

Yeah,

yeah, yeah. So so the ones building it are the ones who are going to put their story and their version of the story in it. And and we need to absolutely break this.

Erin Braxton (59:01)

And to your point. Yes, and to your point about RAG and where AI is extracting information from it's from their their story, their history.

Pamela Gelie (59:15)

Absolutely. That's what I mean. And so that's really the beauty of of Urise from that perspective. It it spins it from a a different perspective.

Erin Braxton (59:24)

Yeah. Well thank you so much for joining me today. I'm sure we'll see you in future.

Pamela Gelie (59:28)

Thanks to you for having me.

Erin Braxton (59:30)

Of course, of course. And thank you guys, everyone, for watching. Go find URISE now, check it out, challenge it, put some information in there and see how it can help you.

Pamela Gelie (59:43)

Yes, yes, we already have a a few customers, so yes, we we want more, we want feedback, and and we want this to be as useful as possible for as many people as possible.

Erin Braxton (59:56)

Is there a feedback section on the website where people can leave the feedback as well?

Pamela Gelie (1:00:00)

Absolutely. Within the app you can leave feedback. So any anything around bugs, improvements, absolutely. We w I'm by no means saying it's perfect and finished. It's always evolving and and just like everything else. So yeah, we want it to be usable and beneficial.

Erin Braxton (1:00:21)

Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Pam. Thank you guys for watching, and we will see you in the next episode.