Dr. Kwanza Falaka (00:00)

There's nothing better between two people than understanding. So I'm just a big fan of having the conversation.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (00:05)

Conflict isn't a bad thing. ⁓ It's how you handle the conflict that can turn it into a bad thing. We just go in, we assume, without getting to know people.

Natasha Williams (00:15)

Sometimes we try to force situations and we just can't. It's just a no-go area. I don't think we are equipped for the workplace. I certainly wasn't. They get into a senior management position but they do not want other black women to come up behind them because they want to maintain this level of professionalism and they cannot trust the women behind them.

Erin Braxton (00:29)

What is the research showing you?

Natasha Williams (00:45)

to behave in the same way. Some people don't even know that they're the part of the problem, you know, and that they are extreme bullies in whatever they're doing. A lot of us haven't got that self-awareness to say, I am the problem here.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (01:01)

want to speak to the person who's actually doing the bullying.

Erin Braxton (01:11)

Hey guys, welcome to the Coffee No Cream podcast. My name is Erin Braxton and I am the host of Coffee No Cream. Here on Coffee No Cream, are unapologetically dedicated to Black women and we share what I like to call Coffee No Cream moments, those things that happen to us Black women in business and in life just because we are Black. We are continuing the conversation with Dr. Kwanza Falaka-Gipson Dr. Lydia Bullock and Natasha Williams.

on Black women's relationships with each other in the workplace. This is the first panel in a series that I've called Make It Make Sense, where we are trying to make sense of why we as Black women cannot seem to get along in the workplace. Why do we have such ⁓ problems with competition, scarcity mindset, jealousy, know, just relationships.

This series is happening as a result of all of the comments that have been left under the videos and the stories that we've been telling on Coffee No Cream since the beginning, just a few short months ago. So let's get right into it. Let's get back into the conversation with these three amazing women and, you know, explore more on what is going on with relations with black women in the workplace. Let's talk about it. So what? OK, so for like the mean, the mean coworker.

Right? Let's put this in real terms. The mean, nasty coworker who's mean, who's spreading lies when you find out she's doing things to you. Black woman. How do you address that?

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (02:49)

think

for me, and I'm thinking of, again, of certain personal scenarios. ⁓ One, it depends on the level of engagement that I have to have with said coworker, right? If there's somebody that's not a part of my day to day. And I think I kind of alluded to a little bit on this, Erin, when I was on the last time. If you are a part of my day to day and we have to work together, I'm just a big fan. One of my favorite sayings is there's nothing better between two people than understanding. So I'm just a big fan of having the conversation. ⁓

And if you're somebody that I don't have to work with, then I don't need to clear anything up. Like that's a you issue. ⁓ But when I'm in a workplace, my goal is to always maintain a level of professionalism. ⁓ Maybe it's my military background where teamwork means a lot to me. Teaming means a lot to me. ⁓ Maybe it's my inner city, West Philadelphia upbringing where success is important to me.

And so if you're a person that is a part of me getting to being successful to Dr. Bullock's point, whatever that looks like, if you're a part of that dynamic to help me get to success, because that's always my professional goal, then we're gonna have a conversation and we're gonna get an understanding. We're gonna reach an understanding. ⁓ But that's me, I'm not afraid of, I'm actually working on a book about conflict. And I'm not afraid, like to me,

conversation and getting understanding doesn't equal conflict. And I think a lot of times people feel like if I have to say something to you, then now we're in conflict. And I just don't believe that. was like, no, I think we're getting to an understanding. So that's incredibly important to me is getting an understanding. So I don't care how mean you are. You know, I've had people I work with like, girl, you know, if I have to, you know, come off of the, you know, it just, just have that.

real sister moment like girl why are you acting like that like it's not that serious like what do need me to do how can i make this better like i can go there as well as like look you know we're the only black women in here i got your back like you're not going to fail on my watch if i work for you if i work with you you're not going to fail on my watch and if you decide that i i wouldn't do this alone then i'm gonna get out your way and let you move ⁓

But I just, you know, I'm not a fan of conflict and I'm not a fan. If we have to work together, then we're gonna find a way to work together. Even if that means me, you know, humbling, whatever the right word is, ⁓ we're gonna be successful together, if you allow me. Because success is important to me. And I, know, anybody that I work with is like, if you're, if I'm connected to you, we're going to win, cause that's what I do.

And if you are not interested in that, then we're not going to be connected.

Erin Braxton (05:47)

So your goal or what your approach would be to, this sounds like a lovely scenario, right? Sometimes we're not dealing with people who can receive that. But I like your approach. I'm gonna ask somebody else to chime in and what they would do. Like Lydia, you were.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (05:56)

conversation.

Erin Braxton (06:16)

You you handled it like, I don't know how the scenario ended with the mean girl that you worked with, but what do you think should be done?

Dr. Lydia Bullock (06:26)

So that situation happened earlier in my career where I was just getting started. I wore my feelings on my sleeve and kind of walked in insecurity and was kind of like, you know, in defense mode a lot.

But as I've grown as a leader I wonder my prayers every day before I walk into work is help me not to walk in the spirit of offense Help me not to walk in the spirit of defensiveness Because as a leader, you know, you only hear bad things. You don't really hear good stuff You hear what things are going wrong. You hear when you know Somebody having the episode or you know, just you hear a lot of bad things, but good things aren't alleviated up to you So I agree with dr. Kwanza 100 % something that I'm

teaching my staff right now on the lens of conflict is conflict isn't a bad thing. It's how you handle the conflict that can turn it into a bad thing. Right? So have the conversation. I do a lot of trainings in my organization with our staff and I always start the training or even a meeting out with norms and norms are just socially acceptable rules that we're going to establish for this space today.

Right? So what do you need? How do we want to establish our space? And before I confront somebody or have a conversation, a difficult or courageous conversation with somebody, I'm going to say, Hey, let's set the tone for our space. Feelings may, you know, get a little aroused here. We may be extremely vulnerable in this space, but I'm going to set the space. So I'm all about having a conversation.

we're going to have a productive conversation and both of us are going to talk, we're going to listen to understand, not just to respond, right? So I'm all about having a conversation too because we spend more time at work so let's get an understanding. Let's establish some decency here. But on the flip side of that, I do understand that everybody does not have that open mindset, that emotional intelligence, that professional maturity to have the conversation. So if you don't want my help,

Please go figure it out. Please go figure it out on your own. But if you want me to help you, if you want me to be a part of your product, whatever you're doing, we're going to have to establish a safe space for us both to work in. But if not, don't come my way.

Erin Braxton (08:58)

Okay, so for people, because you guys have all spoken about being in leadership and when you have your subordinates who are underneath you, who are rude to you or mean to you because you are in a senior or leadership position, what would be your recommendation for women who find themselves in the situation where they're reporting into another black woman and ⁓

You know, because my thing is like, well, you know, tap into her as a mentor or like, or as an advisor of some sort. If she's open to do that, how would you recommend that they curate the relationship or help curate a relationship that sets them up for success as opposed to

immediately jumping to the conclusion of this other black presence is unsafe for me.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (09:59)

So if I could just share really, really fast. Something that I also teach my staff in my job is that these are I statements, things that I believe in. I believe the biggest downfall of an organization is that people don't know each other.

Natasha Williams (10:17)

⁓

Dr. Lydia Bullock (10:18)

Like you have to get to know the people you work with. And I'm not saying like what size clothes they wear, where they live it, but know how they want to accept, know, receive feedback, know their, you know, know their body language, like know things about them. And you do that by having conversation. You do that by creating space for people to get to know each other. Right. And that's something that we don't take the time out to do when we're working in a nine to five brick and mortar. We do not do that. And that is the biggest thing.

Because like you said, we just go in and we assume without getting to know people. And that is wrong. It's almost like being in a relationship. You just going to be in a relationship with somebody you don't know? People do it, right? Don't get me wrong. People do do it, right? But you have to get to know that person in order for the relationship to work, for it to be successful, for you to accomplish things.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (11:12)

Erin, I could, I'm sorry. ahead. I was going to say, if I can add to your, to your, you know, your, your question about the mentorship, first of all, understanding that just because I'm a black woman in a space and you're a black woman in a space doesn't mean that there is a synergy there for mentorship. So don't just assume that, you know, that I would be a good mentor for you. Right. And that you would be a good mentee for me to work with. So I think that goes back to getting to know each other. I'm a huge proponent of mentorship.

Erin Braxton (11:13)

Yeah, go ahead.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (11:42)

Some of my favorite mentors is a black woman and I love her down. One of my favorite bosses was a black woman and I love her down. She was a younger black woman. She was younger than I was and I just the best person I ever worked with ever. ⁓ But I think finding, first of all, understanding yourself and what it is that you need in a workplace.

And then identifying somebody that, ⁓ I see something of value in that person and trying to figure out what that is. I'm a huge fan of, you know, reaching across organizations, ⁓ going into a new organization and identifying somebody and say, hey, can we have coffee? Can I get five minutes on your calendar? Like just identifying people that you connect with. And it may not necessarily be a person of color or a black person or woman or whatever.

⁓ But just really being open to learning and understanding what it is that you're looking to get out of an environment. But I think understanding the importance of mentorship ⁓ is not just about someone being an advocate for you in spaces that you're not in, but somebody that can help you to navigate a space. My favorite mentor that I talk about all the time, she just happened to be a black woman from Philly. And I never forget meeting with her one day and she said that, you know, she was like, ⁓

She decided years ago in her career that she would never work for someone that she doesn't respect. And I took that and that is one of my professional principles is that I will not work for someone that I don't respect. And she said she would never work for someone that she thinks she's smarter than. And although I believe that you can learn a lot from a lot of people when it comes to the professional development, if I know more about this space than you do and I feel stumped and I feel silenced because I can't.

communicate with you that this is the way that we should go and you're threatened by that. I can't work for you. I can't work with you. And Erin, I think I shared with the woman that I just recently stopped working with. That was her deal. Like she had never worked in that space, at that level. And there was just a lot more that I knew that she didn't know. And instead of embracing that, because again, you're the lead.

Anything you anything that I offer is to your credit I'm not here to get anything to override you or to anything So if I know and I'm telling you that hey Here's the information sliding you did the cheat sheet right and you push the cheat sheet back. It's like nope I want to learn it my way. Okay And for me, I will get out of your way and allow you to do that ⁓ But I think you as the individual I always say that you're responsible for managing you

figure out what it is that you want, what it is that you need. And even if you don't fully understand it, like where I am at a five year old or five years within my profession was totally different than where I am now 30 years as a professional in this space, right? But I know that I wanna grow. I know that I wanna build my skills and get better at it, right? So just identifying people that can help me to get even if it's just to that next level.

and continuing to build in that way. think that is incredibly important to anybody, whatever industry you're in. If you are looking to become ⁓ a veteran in that industry, a subject matter expert in that industry, you have to identify a mentor that helps you to navigate that space.

Erin Braxton (15:12)

What about... Thank you for that. What about...

So many comments, lot of women, you know, they come in, they're already, their mind is made up. They're traumatized from previous work experiences. They don't want to talk to anybody. ⁓ Attitude could care less, you know, they don't want to interact with anybody. What's your recommendation on that? And this includes other black women as well. ⁓ Just while I have you guys here, I want to ask this because I think

A lot of times, we as black women, going back to, for whatever reason, if it's from rooted in slavery, if it's rooted in whatever it's from, don't want to be lumped in together with each other because we see that as a disadvantage to us professionally. What is your recommendation when people have that attitude or you're working with someone

who is like that or nasty or what is your recommendation when, especially for younger women who come in very excited and optimistic about their job and their future and then it just gets like shut down because they're hit with these things. And it could be, it is devastating. What's your recommendation on how to deal with those sorts of attitudes? Do you recommend, I guess my question is a couple things. For the women who,

have had experiences and they're not wanting to engage or talk, do you recommend, you think that's fine? I I feel like I know what you're gonna say, Dr. Kwanza, but maybe not. If that's where they wanna be in the organization, if that's the way they wanna behave. And then also what to do as a coworker of someone who you're having those kinds of troubles with, maybe like what Dr. Lydia said she faced or.

even Natasha with the woman that she employed, just dealing with difficult personalities.

Natasha Williams (17:18)

You know, sometimes...

I come from a very large family and one thing I've learned to do is to just accept people as they are. just, you know, if you're open to change, I'm willing to work with you to change. If you're not open to change, we'll just leave it there as it is. Sometimes we try to force situations and we just can't. It's just a no-go area.

If someone's not willing to talk to resolve conflict, if someone's not willing to heal, I just have to leave them where they are and say, do you know what? It's in my best interest to just move away from this person or not work with this person. And that's just the honest truth. And I find that a lot of times I come across a lot of ⁓ black women

that have an attitude towards me and I try to resolve the conflict. If I, like I say, give everyone three chances, if can't do it, I just move on because life is too short. I'm very fortunate now that I don't actually have to work in the workplace. And someone wrote to me today, part of my research, I asked her to fill in the survey and she said, thank God I've left the workplace.

And someone's actually told me that I look younger. My hair started growing when I left. It is a lot to deal with. know, vying for the attention of somebody, being in conflict with other black women. Life's too short. Life's too short. And I say to my children that, you know, yeah, you're going to navigate through the workplace, but they tend to have a different attitude.

My son Nathaniel's a teacher, if someone gets on his nerves or whatever, he's looking to, as a way out of that situation, it's not there to sort of sit down trying to resolve this whole thing. Cause he said that he's probably got my attitude, life's too short. You know, just move on. There's a lot of people in this world, not just black women, but there's a lot of people that...

need support, help and healing to just get to that next level. I don't think we are equipped for the workplace. I certainly wasn't. And I've had to learn as I've gone along how to deal with people in the workplace, how to deal with conflict in the workplace. I remember when I was about 17 and I was in one of my first jobs.

My manager told me off in front of everyone and I said to him, I don't think that's the right thing for you to do. He was in his late 50s and he told me off in front of everyone and I said, I don't think that's the right thing for you to do. Why didn't you take me somewhere private to tell me off? My mum, when I told my mum, she said to me, you can't do that. You can't talk to people like that. But I've always been like that. You know, if you're doing something wrong, I will confront you.

This is how it is. If you're not happy with it, I just don't want to deal with you because I have to maintain that level of professionalism in the workplace. If you cannot meet me there or I cannot meet you where you're at.

That's it.

Erin Braxton (21:07)

What is the research showing you? What is so far? Are you getting a lot of information back about working with other, for our purposes, like black women with other black women? Are you getting information like that? I just wanted to take a minute to ask you to please like, please share, and please subscribe to the podcast.

Our growth over the past few months has been so amazing. It means so much to me. And all the love that you guys have been showing me is everything. It just confirms what I already thought I knew, but I now definitely know this community is needed. Black women need to have a safe space to discuss what it is we're going through, what it is we need to be successful and move positively through our work.

careers, through our professional careers, our entrepreneurial journeys, all of the things. So definitely please like, please share, subscribe. Also, if you want to continue the conversation in a safe space that is curated just for Black women, we check, we check. I have a group over on Facebook that is private. We check to make sure that you are who you say you are. And we continue these conversations. So it's a place that's safe.

The link is below, so definitely hop over there, join us so we can continue the conversation there as well. That's it, so back to the episode.

Natasha Williams (22:37)

There's not that much in the ⁓ research about other black women working with other black women and finding it difficult, but there is quite a few stories of this drawbridge attitude where they work with other women. Well, what they do, they get into a position, they get into a senior management position, but they do not want other black women to come up behind them.

because they want to maintain this level of professionalism and they cannot trust the women behind them to behave in the same way. And that's what I'm finding in the research.

Erin Braxton (23:19)

Wow. Wow. Yeah. That's interesting.

Natasha Williams (23:25)

But in terms of the research, lot of people say that 90 % of people say that they work harder just to be seen as competent. And that is from entry level to senior manager. And it's all about impressing the boss. They don't think that there's any room for anyone else. They say that within the workplace, competition is created because they do that to us.

And we're playing that game all the time to say they're putting us in competition with each other. There's only room for one. I'm seeing a lot of that in the research.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (24:07)

It's interesting, Natasha, as you're talking, I'm thinking about my very well, not my very first, like I mentioned, I went into the military at 17. My parents had to sign for me to go in. And I remember one of the things I to come from a large family. And I've always kind of like been in the middle, but with my my parents, children, I'm the youngest. So there was this sense of I can really do anything. But in the same breath is like trying to I mean, we talk about not necessarily competition, but trying to

have space in a family where there's like a million people all the time. And I remember when I went into the military, one of the first, when I first got to my first duty station in Leavenworth, Kansas, we used to have like our commander run. And this was maybe once a month, the commander of the battalion, whatever, we would do this run. And I remember my very first commander run, they would ask, you know, if someone would come and run alongside the commander and call cadence.

Now if you can imagine me, was about 105 pounds at this point, 18 years old. And I remember looking at this whole battalion of people, had we at least a hundred people, probably more, 150 people. And the commander called out, you know, six o'clock in the morning commander called out, who wants to run alongside of me and call cadence. And my little hand went up. It's faster than anybody else's because in my mind I was like, how do I stand out amongst this whole battalion of all these people?

And I threw my hand up and ran up to the front was like, you know, and I ran alongside the commander at 18 years old, calling cadence to this battalion. ⁓ and so in my mind, I, going back to just the earlier conversation, like I always felt like I had to manage me. And if there was an outcome that I was looking to get, then I was the primary point to getting to that outcome. And so.

If I wanted to stand out from everybody else and I had to be stand out, you know, I had to create an opportunity to stand out. Right. Um, and so I, that was it. That was my opportunity to stand and run alongside the commander. And not only is all my peers seeing me now is all other leadership that's seeing me and my entire time in the military. I was one of those people that at every level of leadership, it was always like, Oh no, you know, and my maiden name was Conwell.

no, Conwell can do that. And so I had so many doors of opportunity open for me because I raised my hand. And in the military, one of the things they will always tell you is don't volunteer for anything. You don't know what it's going to be. But I was like, well, how do you stand out from all these people? And so I think it's just me having this mindset that I have to create a space for me. ⁓ So the idea of competition.

It's just a hard concept for me to grasp. And I don't want to sound like Pollyanna, but it's was a hard concept for me to grasp. Um, because I'm just a firm believer that if you show up and you're prepared and the opportunity presents itself, then who are you competing against? And also on top of that, if it's for you, then it's for you. And if it's not, then, you know, move on, you know, um, yeah.

Again, I don't want to sound Pollyanna, when we talk about this idea of competition, it's just hard for me to really grasp in real time what that looks like from my perspective.

Erin Braxton (27:38)

I think everybody is struggling with what they're struggling with. that that just was never your struggle, right? That was never your thing. You know what I'm saying? It sounds like, and that's great. Like we all have different things that we have to contend with, you know, in our lives and

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (27:46)

Yeah, yeah.

Erin Braxton (28:01)

I was like, I made a joke like, yeah, I always have been a little competitive, but it wasn't really against black women. was just in life, right? Cause that's just my nature to be a little, but you know, ⁓ but I tend to agree because you know, what's for me is for me and I'm going to go and hustle my ass off and you know, make it happen for me. And if they don't give it to me, then I'm going to go get it myself. And I like Natasha, I

I don't work for people. don't. I don't. I mean, I always work for people, but I don't work for people. Like I'll, I'll go drive Uber. I'll do anything, you know, where I don't have to go into an office and work for people. just, that's just not for me. ⁓ but I identified that, that in myself a long time ago, I get that very much from my father, but my sister's very different. My mother was very different. So, ⁓ me,

struggling through trying to make my way and make things happen for me. Yeah, it's not easy, but that's just my personality. For a lot of people, I think that's not their personality. for the people who struggle with that, because some people can't see any other way. Like, OK, everybody's not going to be an entrepreneur. Everybody's not going to go do their own thing. People are going to go and get a job and go home. But I think that they're so

so traumatized when they do go get a job and they just don't even know how to even.

They don't, they just don't know what to do with it. I mean, I'm telling you from the comments that I'm receiving, like how, how, ⁓ stressed out and defeated. mean, I got a, I got a, ⁓ an email from a black woman who was like giving up. That was the title of the email and you're just like, my God. You know, and, and she wasn't, ⁓ she wasn't giving up on life. She was just giving up on, you know, the U S and I got to get away from these white people and da da da da. So.

Sometimes when, ⁓ you know, we all handle things, I think, differently. Yeah, so where I'm like you, Kwanza, where I'm just like, I'm just going to remove myself from the situation. I'm not going to associate with it. I'm not going to deal with it. But some people take it very personally. It's very painful to them. It's very hurtful when other Black women ⁓

treat them a certain way. A lot of black women who are listening are part of the problem. Also, I didn't say that, but we want to say, oh, this thing happened to me. A lot of the black women listening are part of the problem. I've seen the bullies come up in my comments, part of the problem. So just trying to begin the conversations on how do we

help people deal with the things that they're going through every day because everybody here on this, this particular call is pretty senior in their careers and what they're dealing with and stuff like that. Not to say that you're not gonna be dealing with that kind of stuff, but I think black women are traumatized daily. ⁓ And other black women can be the cause of that hurt and pain, you know, just as...

Dr. Bullock was saying, you know, she was really hurt and crying. It's hurtful. It is really painful when other black women who you do come across do treat you a certain way for whatever reason, you know, do we ignore it? Do we can we ignore it? We're not always in a situation where we can get up and leave. We're not always in a situation where ⁓ we can just turn, turn the other way and not deal with them. You know, so I guess that's kind of what I'm hoping to help.

black women with, you know, and to Natasha's point, maybe it's just as simple as, know, I just, they're not healed. I don't, I leave them where they are. Maybe it's to that, it's that simple, but I don't think everybody can do that. Go ahead.

Natasha Williams (32:12)

But can I just say, Erin, I mean, the thing is that some people don't want to get help. There's just some people that... Some people don't even know that they need help. Some people don't even know that they're the part of the problem, you know, and that they are extreme bullies in whatever they're doing. I can think of quite a few women that are like that.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (32:20)

I don't see anything wrong.

Natasha Williams (32:39)

But the thing is that those that want to get help, because I did quite a lot of interviews before I started this other phase of my research, and there was a lady that I interviewed and she was working in a place for 13 years being bullied by other black people, black women, black men. And she was there for 13 years and she was worn out.

My advice to her was to go to get a mentor outside of the organization and join a community group of other black women that are very like-minded because sometimes you can't find them in your local area. You've got to go online, you've got to look outside your profession, you've got to look other places where people are quite like-minded.

doing what you're doing or willing to mentor you or a sponsor or something. And within three months, she was able to find a job, another job where she's happy now with the managers supporting her and taking her to a new level. But for 13 years, you're sitting there because you think you haven't got an option. Working amongst these types of people that really do not want to.

help you or advance you in any way, shape or form. And we, as individuals, a lot of us haven't got that self-awareness to say, do you know what? We are, I am the problem here. I question myself every day, just like Dr. Bullock, how can I be the best version of myself? Did I make a mistake in this situation? Could I have handled this better?

How can I talk to this person? And when you start asking yourself these sorts of questions, things start to improve for you. And sometimes, like I say to people, I didn't just land. All of a sudden I became a director of surveying. I used to travel 120 miles three times a week to go and volunteer to shadow somebody in order to become a surveyor.

A lot of people in my circle will say, look at Natasha. it's all right. She only, she got a scholarship to do this. She got this. No, I had to work extremely, extremely hard. And if I tell people my story and they're sort of hand on chest and everything, you know, to say what I've actually gone through just to get to this point, they're quite shocked. But I've got to have the tenacity. I've got to

find a way around it, I've got to think that if I cannot do it, who's going to do it for me? So I will find that mentor. I will reach out to people to, if I need someone to talk to, how they did that, how did they go along their journey to get to where they are? And I think more of us need to do that.

instead of looking at other people as competition, just ask the question, how did you get there? I like what you're doing. I always welcome that. Sometimes I will take on five or six people that I mentor ⁓ in surveying, getting through that door. And I put that out to people, you know, but the thing is a lot of people don't want to ask. They just want to moan and say, it's so hard. It's so hard.

and I just don't know how to do it.

Erin Braxton (36:37)

Now I do agree with that they do want to just moan

Natasha Williams (36:42)

you

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (36:44)

Work isn't complaining. Erin, can I share an experience that I had that I think as you guys were talking, this experience just keeps coming to the surface. I want to share it. So I.

Erin Braxton (36:55)

Yeah!

⁓

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (37:01)

But I remember working with a team. I think it was a team, it was a nine person team. I was the lead. There were five women, five black women, including myself on this team. And I remember one of the women when she first came joined the team. And I had been there for a while and, you know, was familiar with the leadership and the direction that we were going in and some of the challenges that we have faced in the past. So I had the experience of all of the historical knowledge.

And so I remember having a meeting with my team and everybody had their areas of expertise and we were trying to solve a particular problem. And I kind of presented the problem to the team and said, what's a good approach to trying to solve this problem? Keeping in mind some of the things we've tried in the past, et cetera, et cetera. So there was this one young lady who had just joined the team and she came up with like about five different suggestions and I was kind of jotting them down. And as she was suggesting, say she said one thing, was like, oh, that's a great idea. I wrote it down.

then maybe her second idea was like, yeah, that's something we tried before and it didn't work and here's why. And so I didn't accept, you know, didn't write that idea down. And she gave, like I said, gave about five different suggestions. And maybe of the five, was like three of them like, this is great. Yeah, this is great. This is great. But by the second time when I was like, well, no, you know, based off of some of the other stuff that was happening with leadership, I was like, I don't know that that's a good approach. And literally in a meeting, she just kind of did this.

And she pushed away from the table and she was like this for the entirety of the meeting. And clearly when you're at a table with nine people, it's obvious to everyone when someone shuts down and she could completely shut down in a meeting and just had her hands like this the entire time. So I noticed this and I don't want to call her out. Don't want to cause any more attention to it than what's already being caused. Right. And so, ⁓ you know, we go through the meeting and she, she had no more input for anything. She, you know,

She just shut down. So after the meeting, you know, we kind of went back to our respectives, whatever. And then I kind of went up to her like later in the afternoon. It was like, Hey, you know, so we met in a conference room and I was like, Hey, is everything okay? I noticed that you shut down in a meeting this morning. And, you know, she expressed how she was upset that I, you know, shut down her ideas. And I'm just like, well, you gave five, you know, really good ideas, but unfortunately two of them were things that we had already tried.

kind of tried to give her a little historical knowledge behind it. And she just felt like I just wasn't open to her ideas. And you know, I kind of explained to her like in more detail why the other two ideas, why I didn't jot them down or why I wasn't as open to those ideas or suggestions. ⁓ But then we fast forward, you know, we continue to work together. She only lasted probably maybe four months. She didn't stay with the team very long. She ended up leaving. But then probably about a year and a half later,

she was applying for another position with a company that I was working with and she knew that I worked for this company and she reached out to me and asked me if I would be a reference for her. And I explained to her that I would not and I reminded her of that situation. And she was really upset with me and she had every right to be. But for me, it was like my reputation is really important to me as well. And if you've exhibited or just demonstrated

the inability to be emotionally mature in a meeting, then I can't put my name on that. I can't endorse that. And so I think that's the thing that we have to think about too, especially if you're in a small industry where, you know, we kind of circle back and we come in like one minute, I might be your boss and next week you're my boss. Like that's how my industry is. And then there are times where you do need recommendation. Like a lot of what we do is word of mouth and we're constantly, you know, looking at resumes and

recounting the past experience that I may have had with this person. Like that's really a very real phenomenon if you're in an industry that's small. curious to know just like for you guys, ⁓ but one, are your thoughts about people asking for recommendations if you've had a bad experience with them? And then like, how would you handle that? Especially a black woman to black woman and you're trying to be supportive and all this. How would you handle that?

Erin Braxton (41:19)

I mean, let me just say, I think that's very, like, I don't know. You know, like, if they would have been like, well, you recommend me, and I probably would have been like, OK. You know, like, I probably would have done that because another black woman asking me something like that, I probably wouldn't have, even though I'm like. Unless she is. Unless she did something where I thought it was really going to embarrass me and make me look like really, really, really bad, you know.

I don't know. What do you guys think? I don't know. That's tough.

Natasha Williams (41:53)

⁓ I've turned down several.

I will not hesitate because I've got to protect my integrity. I've got to be ethical in everything that I do. I cannot recommend you if I don't feel that you're going to do a good job, that you're going to embarrass yourself if the job's not right for you. There's a whole host of reasons why I would turn people down. But I always explain and I always send them an email and say, this is why I

I cannot give you a reference.

Erin Braxton (42:32)

Mmm, Lydia?

Dr. Lydia Bullock (42:36)

I see I really agree with what everybody is saying here ⁓ I do this Aaron I'm similar to you where I'm Such an empathetic person that I would try to coach the person right on what to do And if they have done something in the past, I would tell them okay What you did was not right and especially if they're going into a leadership like role We would really have to sit down and like let's talk

things you cannot do if I'm going to recommend you. And again, similar to what Natasha said, you have to have that emotional maturity. Or maybe Dr. Kwanza said, you have to have that emotional maturity, that professional maturity to receive that feedback. Because even just because you're giving them feedback, don't mean they're going to receive it.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (43:24)

Exactly.

Erin Braxton (43:26)

Well, okay, well let me just ask this one question before we get into our speed round, because I have comments, but I don't think any of them are, it's all stuff that we've kind of covered as far as like, ⁓

We've kind of covered it, but I'm gonna ask this question, which is gonna kind of cover it. So when you come into, well, I might read one comment, but let me just ask this question. So we agree that you come into an environment and we agree that a lot of us need to work on ourselves internally, right? When...

Because this is the thing and I don't want to say we come in with a chip on our shoulder. We come in traumatized. We come in hurt. We come in all of these things and then we're not a pleasure to work around. Right. People don't want to be around us. We don't want to interact with anybody. And I get it. A lot of black women come to work and we just don't want to be bothered. We go to work. We do our job and come home. ⁓ You know. But for the people who are dealing with

⁓ those black women who are difficult, we, and I just want to make sure, because I want to be able to give people something to walk away with, you know what I'm saying? Like, when we come into work and we have a black woman who you know is stabbing you in the back or who is talking trash about you or who is nasty to you ⁓ and that sort of thing, ⁓

Are we in agreement that we, if she, what are we in agreement on? I'm just, we've said so many things, I guess. I don't know what to tell her, right? Because I want to be able to help somebody today, you know? What did we do with that woman? You know, do we just ignore her and separate ourselves as Dr. Kwanza says she would do? ⁓ Do we attempt to try to engage with her in a more friendly way? Let her know we've

You know, we're a safe person. We even do any of that. You know, how do we deal with that when it's so painful and off putting and just unbelievable that we're dealing with other black women who are so, ⁓ I guess, harmful in the workplace is if you will. Like you guys have said so many things, but I just want to kind of like wrap it up.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (45:55)

So if I could speak to ⁓ Natasha.

I want to speak and I appreciate your stans but I want to speak to the person who's actually doing the bullying. Okay. If that's okay. want to speak to the person causing the harm and causing the wedge of competition and I want to speak to it because again as a younger girl I was that person like I was a person who was extremely envious and very you know in that competitive mindset or not even competitive mindset but I would say jealousy. So what to do to combat that and

Think a second part today is I want to speak to anybody out there who believes in God Jesus Too because I do know there's some faith-filled believers that are probably watching that This can maybe help them And I think there's one it was a quote that I've probably seen on Instagram and this was a while ago and they say that you can't compete with me because I want you to win too and I think that goes back to something that dr. Kwanza stated earlier is that

Literally, we all like if you're on my team, we're all going to be successful. We all can win, right? So just remind the other black women it is enough out there for us all to win. We can have the same resources and we can still be successful, right? It is possible. And then that's the first thing I want to say. The second thing I want to say is do the internal work. Do the work, accept that you have a flaw. It's OK. We all have them.

Nobody's perfect. Do the internal work, whatever they may look like, do the work. And the work can happen at any age, because we are all going to change. We all have changed from yesterday. Well, maybe not everybody. We all have, you know, some of us have changed from yesterday, months ago, years ago, right? We're always growing. We're always learning.

So it's okay to change. It's okay to say, man, I was a menace. But now that I have grown in my craft, I've grown in my profession, I've learned how to treat people. Right? ⁓ So I think it's okay to do the work, but work on yourself.

Erin Braxton (48:08)

And people don't know they need to do the work,

Dr. Lydia Bullock (48:11)

They don't.

They don't, but I think they do not.

But I think that just comes with time that comes with experience in recognizing, I need to do the work. It also comes with healing. If you are tired of being mean, if you're tired of not moving or advancing, it will cause you to go deep and say, okay, it's me. Like if you are stagnant, are you like recognizing, I cannot advance ⁓ or I'm losing friends or whatever the case may be. You have to take the moment to, okay, what am I doing?

What can I do better for myself, right? Especially if you start to see things are not moving in your life. The third thing I'm gonna say, and this is from my spiritual eye, my spiritual lens is the, you all are familiar with the 23rd divisions of Psalms, where it states, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want.

When we hear that, we think of, okay, I'm not going to want for a car. I'm not going to want for a house. I'm not going to want for food. I'm not going to want for clothes. But I think it's important that we take that cognitively. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want that means I don't have to be jealous of nothing anybody else has because the Lord is my shepherd. I don't have to want for what somebody else has because of what he has for me is for me. Right. I don't have to want for what you have. And I don't have to want

what Natasha has or Dr. Kwanza has, I want what God wants for me. I shall not want, right? ⁓ So I think that's an important thing to adopt if you are spiritual, if you are maybe in the religious community or just in general. Even if you are not, you don't have to want for anything because what lies for you will be for you. So even if you are not spiritual, you can still apply that to your life.

Right? So I think I, again, I'm speaking to the people who have been mean girls. I'm speaking to the people who have wished that competency or that competitive mindset or been the bullies in the workplace.

Take a step back and look yourself in the mirror. It is the greatest thing that God has ever done for me. And I did this work when I was a young girl. I'm talking about early 20s where I was like, okay, I'm tired of looking at other people on what they have. Let me make space and make room for what God actually wants for Lydia. And since I've done that, I've thrived. I've thrived at a very young age because I did the work.

And granted, the things that had happened to me from a young age was because of other people. I come from a large family too. My mom is one of 14 children. So our family reunions are humongous, right? But they were always causing competition between the younger, the cousins and things like that. And that's where they came from. I felt like I always had to prove myself to be better. I've always had to work twice as hard. And that started from my family.

So I had to literally unpack that as an adult. Like, why am I like this? That's where it stemmed from. And again, when I did it at a younger age, my life has been pretty peaceful, right? Because I want everybody to win. I also am just a lover of people. I'm a lover of black people specifically, very pro-black. I want us all to succeed, right? But we have to do the work. We have to, whatever that may look like. And that's my piece.

Erin Braxton (51:37)

I love that. I love that. I love what you said about especially when you see that you're not growing when you see that you're you have an evolved and you're stuck to the mean girls to the bullies right who are watching this and maybe they don't realize they're the bullies ⁓ when you're just stagnant you know those yeah I love that ⁓

That was good. That was good. Okay, Natasha, I know you were trying to say something when I asked this question ⁓ before. Did you want to add to that?

Natasha Williams (52:15)

Yeah, I think, I would say that I'm a very kind person, although sometimes I don't really come across like that. I come across like a mean person. But the thing is that I always say to my sisters, ⁓ you know, be supportive of your colleagues, but, ⁓ the other person receiving it cannot, it doesn't

mean that we overlook poor performance if a black person is failing. You know, don't expect us to always sort of lift you up out of that. If you're, if it's poor performance is poor for performance. You know, we can't always support bad behaviour in the workplace and we've just got to have that respect for each other when we're working and just stop treating everyone like, ⁓ that's my sister in

you know as they do over here that's my sister sister sister no we're not sisters we're professionals in the work environment and we've got to see each other like that

Erin Braxton (53:25)

Yeah, absolutely. All right, we've been on here for a while, so I'm just gonna skip the comments and ⁓ we're gonna do a lightning round where ⁓ I'm gonna give you guys each, I'm gonna just throw out a few topics and I'm gonna give you each, you know, about 30, 45 seconds, minute max to tell me what your first thought is when I say this.

this topic that pertains to black women in the workplace, okay? So, ⁓ Dr. Kwanza, let's start with scarcity mindset.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (54:06)

⁓ scarcity mindset. just believe that there's another there's more than enough that it really is. I think when we think about it, like, what are we talking about here? Right. There's if you're talking about getting if there's a position that I want to get, there's only one position. Yeah, there's one position. But what is it that that that you think that position is going to yield you? Right. Because that's the thing that you really want is not the position is what the position will yield. Do you think it's going to yield you more?

⁓ power, more money, more influence, like what is it that you think you're going to get from that position? And if you can't get it from that position, then create another avenue for you to get those things because it's not about the position is about what you think the position is going to yield you. So when you think of a scarcity mindset, that's a poverty mindset and a lean on that, you know, that, that the spiritual lens, you know, the scripture says that poverty will always be amongst us. The poor will always be amongst us, but you don't have to

live in a poverty mindset. And so when you look at it that way, you have to keep your mind, you focus on what is it that I'm looking to get from a particular position or a particular place and focus on getting that and not tying that specifically to that position or that person that's in that position. So that would be my approach to managing a poverty mindset or a scarcity mindset.

Erin Braxton (55:27)

Natasha.

Natasha Williams (55:29)

Well, there's enough for everyone. There's, ⁓ if I think a lot of women need to actually understand what they actually want from life in the first place. I have a manifesto that I created for myself. It's a one page thing that I read to myself every day. So I know that I'm on track. That's why I'm not in competition with anyone else. And, ⁓

I had a call with someone actually who watched this podcast and she said, I'm actually confused about what I actually want out of my career. And I think one of the best things you can do is to write down what you actually want and then start to work towards it. You then find that that position, that role, that whatever you want is actually out there and it will come to you if you're patient enough.

and you just spend your time working towards it. Stay focused.

Erin Braxton (56:33)

I like that manifesto. That's like a good, that's a good exercise. That's a good exercise. Okay. Colorism, who's going to talk about that? Natasha is good to talk about colorism.

Natasha Williams (56:49)

Hahaha, my god.

Erin Braxton (56:53)

Yeah.

Natasha Williams (56:54)

We are all equal. Do you know what? When it comes to colorism...

I don't know if any of you ladies watched my last podcast, I grew up with a ⁓ light skinned stepdad who called me a black shit every day. ⁓ I remember he said to me one day, ⁓ well I saw a picture of his mum and I said to him, I always say that your mum's got a similar complexion to me. He said, no, no, no, no, my mum's got like a...

chocolatey colour. I was like would that be milk chocolate or dark chocolate? You know, obviously that didn't upset him. But the thing is that what I was trying to say to him, in the eyes of everyone, we are just black. We're just black. And the thing is that sometimes when we go out there, we think that we're going to be treated more favourable because we've got a

lighter tone or whatever, but it doesn't matter. We're all people at the end of the day. We don't have to say, ⁓ that person's got more opportunity because that person's lighter skinned or that person hasn't got any opportunity because that person's darker skinned. And I find that within our community, we are pitted against each other because there's so much colorism there.

But I'm telling you, at the end of the day, if you've got the competence, you will get the job. If you've got the competence, you will get ⁓ the contract. If you've got the competence, you will get the business.

Erin Braxton (58:54)

agree with you, but I have a question. Do you really think that colorism doesn't play a role even with white people?

Natasha Williams (59:02)

With white people, not so much. Not so much. But the thing is that I think, because I've got some white friends, especially men, they find darker skinned women a lot more attractive. But we buy into all this thing about what men find attractive, what men don't find attractive. I don't really care about that, whether you find me attractive or not. I've been in, like for instance, I was at the gym one day.

and I was in the sauna and there was a very, very good looking light skinned lady sitting next to me and the guys were in there chatting her up and everything and but he, the guy was saying how ugly I was and all this sort of business and I said if you like the girl that's fine, it's fine but the thing is that you don't have to put me down just because you like this person

You know, but we are so us ourselves, we buy into all this because someone finds us more attractive or this is affecting the other person. We have to live within ourselves. We have to be OK with ourselves. We're not attracted to everybody. Everyone's got different tastes. It does play a role. But the thing is that if we as a collective buy into that, they will use that against us more and more.

Erin Braxton (1:00:30)

Older versus Younger Black Women, ⁓ Dr. Baluk.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (1:00:38)

I'm the right one for this one, but I will stay wholeheartedly. I love working with older black women. I do. ⁓ But let me also purpose this by saying I enjoy working with older black women that are nice and kind and can see the value of a younger perspective. ⁓

That's really all I can say about that because I'm a lover of the generations that are older than me because I feel like they do have the wisdom, right? ⁓ And I often, and I think it's hard for me to talk about this one because I kind of am an old soul. So I relate really, really well with the older generation. ⁓

Erin Braxton (1:01:23)

But

have you had older black women that weren't nice to you?

Dr. Lydia Bullock (1:01:29)

I can't, I don't think I have. I don't think I have. Yeah, that's why I'm I don't know if this is a one for me.

Natasha Williams (1:01:35)

You

Erin Braxton (1:01:37)

Alright, I'll give you another one. ⁓ ego versus insecurity, ego and insecurity.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (1:01:45)

I think it's a balance.

You gotta have that balance of number one, let's learn the definitions of, right? Because confidence is needed in the workplace. If you do not have the confidence, you will find yourself asking for validation so much. You will find yourself questioning yourself, right? So there's a difference between having confidence and insecurity because insecurity can literally play out in their jealousy. Insecurity can show and when other people get promotions.

Insecurity can show ⁓ even in competitiveness. So I came from absolutely nothing. Right? So I had to work hard. Right? So that it just plays so much in people's insecurities when they see me because they either say, wow, Lydia, she's young and she's successful or Lydia had a hand out. So I say all that to say it's a fine line between having confidence

and having a big, being too conceited, right? Or even having an insecurity. It is a fine line between what that looks like in the workspace.

Erin Braxton (1:02:58)

I think a lot of the Mean Girl energy is coming from insecurity when it comes with black women, with other black women. ⁓

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (1:03:05)

100%.

Erin Braxton (1:03:10)

It took me a long time to realize that, right? It took me a long time to realize that. But as I've gotten older, you know, when people say mean and hurtful things or they do things to you, it really is just coming from a place of insecurity. So with that said, we're going to close out with what is one mindset shift black women need to make to support one another better? So we'll just go around. We'll start with.

We'll start with Dr. ⁓

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (1:03:40)

I knew you were going to start with me.

So say that again, what is one mindset shift?

Erin Braxton (1:03:47)

What is one mindset shift Black women need to make to support one another better?

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (1:03:53)

that we are better together. We are better together. ⁓ when you can lean on somebody who may have a stronger or stronger in an area that you're not strong in, you know, partnership is important. Teaming is important. ⁓ connecting, building alliances are, you know, is important. ⁓ so I think that would be

Just to kind of keep it concise is just that we are better together. Find what those strengths are that you don't have that someone else may have and leverage that. We're better together.

Erin Braxton (1:04:31)

Okay, Natasha.

Natasha Williams (1:04:33)

Yeah, accountability is not an attack. We have to hold ourselves to higher standards.

Erin Braxton (1:04:47)

Absolutely, and I mean yeah, I was like I was like I shouldn't say something else, but yeah ⁓

Dr. Lydia Bullock (1:04:54)

Yeah.

Natasha Williams (1:04:56)

Dr. Bullock.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (1:04:59)

I would have to say take the limits off of other black women.

Like, stop putting each other in the box. We don't like when people put us in the box and tell us what we can and cannot do or the things that are the only things we can do rather, right? Let's take each other out the box. Stop putting limitations on each other. Stop limiting how far we can go with the change. Stop limiting what other business we can start. Stop. Stop limiting each other. Because that's what they want. They want us to limit each other. They want us to be stagnant.

to be complacent. So help each other out and stop take them limits off. Take that glass ceiling and bust it from over our heads.

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (1:05:43)

So Erin, one of the things I wanted to add before you close out is one of the things I often share with women in particular is to tell yourself your story. I think a lot of time when we can do that self-examination and really be honest with ourselves about those insecurities, about those dreams, you know, deferred or those dreams, you know, ⁓ goals that you've not, you know, goals unmet or whatever. And just really being honest about yourself, what those things are, how do you feel about it?

How are you shifting your perspectives around those things? I think a lot of times we underestimate the power of disappointment and the effects that it have on our ability to really kind of do well in our lives. Sometimes we'll hold on to something that was a huge disappointment that we've never dealt with, that we've never processed or assessed. So one of the things I often say is like, tell yourself your story and you can like... ⁓

Pinterest has a lot of great prompts that you can use to just like really be honest with yourself and you can do it in a safety of your own home. You can do it with a group of girlfriends that you trust. It could be a written exercise, a verbal exercise, a recorded exercise, whatever works for you. But I think it's really important to kind of work from the inside out because I think a lot of times we work from the outside and then internalize it as opposed to fearing I was going on with us internally.

and how that's projecting outwardly. So I think that's a great exercise for any of us to do. I do it often. Just kind of tell yourself your story. I actually have a scroll that's this long scroll and I wrote down like my accomplishments. I wrote down my fears. I wrote down my goals. I wrote down, you know, dreams deferred, you know, things that I desire to do that, you know, for whatever reason wasn't able to accomplish. And if there's still room to accomplish it, you know, set it up in, you know, something that you'll try to pursue in a future date.

But I think really just kind of looking at yourself because you're going to be the common denominator in any scenario or any situation that you're in, whether it's someone doing something to you or you being a part of doing something to someone else. Like you're going to be a common denominator in your own life. So understanding your insecurities, understanding your flaws or whatever those characteristic flaws might be, just understanding and figuring out ways to manage it and seeing and recognizing when it shows up.

in so many situations because I know that, you know, whether I like the story that I shared, my coffee no cream moment that I shared, one of the things I did go back and look at is like, man, how did I contribute to her feeling that way? Because even if in my mind it was like, well, that was a false equivalence, like that wasn't my intentions to be a bully or to be jealous or even give you the indication that that might've been a case, but then assessing it to figure out what.

How did I contribute to that scenario, I think is an important thing. ⁓ You know, just to assess and you know, you may make changes in your life based off of it or you may look at it and say, I did nothing wrong. Like whatever the case is, we're just doing an honest assessment of the role that you play in any situation, in every situation. I think it's an important way ⁓ to grow and to learn from your experiences.

Erin Braxton (1:09:01)

Based on that, I'm just curious if you guys, just to maybe help somebody out who's watching, you say you have a list you've worked on yourself internally. I don't mind sharing. ⁓

like maybe an insecurity that you guys have overcome professionally that might be helpful to someone. So Kwanza do you want to start with like something that you've worked on that you've found in yourself that you've shared or that you can share with us that you've worked on that maybe can help somebody?

Dr. Kwanza Falaka (1:09:33)

Absolutely. think one of my big, I still haven't decided if this is an issue or not, but I think it's an issue when I'm projecting it on other people. I like to win. Like I'm not competitive, but I like to surround myself with really smart people. I don't want to be the smartest person in any scenario. I love to learn from people and glean from people. ⁓ But in that, with that mindset, I can find myself to be dismissive as well. So if you, like I said, you know,

I don't want to work with anybody that's not smarter than me. That's a big comment to make, right? Because like I said, you can learn from everybody, but if I have in my mind that this is the way to win and you're doing something and I'm like, nah, that's not going to let me win, then that can become very dismissive. So that was something that I absolutely had to work on and continue to work on in different scenarios ⁓ throughout my life. It's not something that I've mastered because I think that's like a natural, ⁓

I think Dr. Bullock mentioned it as well. It's like when you start looking at what is the fruit of a thing, right? So if my goal is to always win, what are the things that I'm dismissing with that mindset? So understanding what are some of the things that I've identified as contrary to winning? And then that shows where my biases are. It shows where ⁓ my lack of patience or ⁓

engagement or whatever it is. So understanding it might be something that's good for me like in my mind, yeah we should all be seeking to win but it also develops a characteristic in us that could be dismissive of other personalities. So for me that's something I certainly continue to have to pay attention to.

Erin Braxton (1:11:19)

Hmm, that's good. Natasha?

Natasha Williams (1:11:24)

Right. I've had to work on a lot of things and ⁓ I would say that I did not come from a normal straight traditional household. I don't know if you want to even share this. In my background, there's a lot of trauma and ⁓ it was a traumatic childhood.

I then went into a traumatic young teen traumatic marriage. I had a traumatic marriage. So the thing is that I was locked. I was locked in the house for about four years by my ex-husband. And so the thing is that because I had so much trauma, there was a lot of things that I had to work on within myself.

just to show up ⁓ as a healed person. So I know there are so many women that have ⁓ experienced sort of domestic abuse and they don't know how to show up in the workplace after that. ⁓ Yeah, I've gone through quite a lot of domestic abuse. I mean, the thing is, I was...

I was explaining to someone the other day, I think the last beating I got from my mum was when I was about 40. Yeah, so yeah. So I've had to go through counselling, somatic healing.

All sorts of things, from the age of about 15. Yeah, I've had a lot of trauma in my life and it has been, every day has been a healing process for probably the last 15 years I've been healing to just get myself together really. And it can be done. There's a lot of things that you can do.

Because I've got such a... My background with my family as well is quite traumatic. And I see there's a lot of women in our family that really needs to go through the healing process and they're just not ready for it. ⁓ So they think that I am weird because I show up in the world as a sort of normal person.

Erin Braxton (1:14:05)

then.

Natasha Williams (1:14:06)

and they're just angry alcoholics, they're drug addicts and what have you. So yeah, I've had to do a lot of work.

Erin Braxton (1:14:18)

Okay, wow, thank you for sharing that, Dr. Bullock.

Dr. Lydia Bullock (1:14:24)

I think I've been kind of speaking towards it throughout the entire episode. But that is like past Dr. Bullock. But I think my current insecurity that I'm working every single day to improve is just really knowing that I'm worthy, right? Worthy and honestly that I have a voice, right? Because again, growing up,

I would state it again as a fat, skin, I would even say even tall, ⁓ and even not being a child who comprehended well, right, with low test scores due to comprehension issues. When it really wasn't a comprehension issue, I just needed more time. But... ⁓

Growing up dealing with all of those things I felt silenced and I have been silenced for so many years in my life. Then now that I know I have so much value to conversations and people and systems in the workplace, ⁓ it's knowing when to speak up.

And being confident when I do speak up right? And advocacy I'm a big advocate for people but I have to I feel an advocate for myself ⁓ So just remembering myself right and remembering that I can hold space in any Place that I enter into if I choose to Right and being confident in doing so

So I, again, I've worked really majority of my adult life to prove myself as worthy. And it is a journey every day. And I can say I have grown so, so extremely much. I'm literally on this today. I'm talking, right? Even Aaron knows in the gym, like I'm probably the quietest person. They're always looking at me like, what is Lydia thinking? Cause I don't say anything. But I work every single day to make sure that I feel worthy.

as I make other people feel that way.

Erin Braxton (1:16:33)

For me, I had to deal with, and I've said this on the podcast, a lot of professional self-worth issues. Because as a child, I got everything I wanted. didn't have, it's like, I talk about it in one of my videos. It's like, I'm going along until I get to that first job, and then it's just like, what's going on? So, and so,

I had to deal with a lot of professional self-worth issues and things like that when I was coming out of working for corporate. I was in Dallas, Texas. I was one of the only black women always. And, you know, even in the end, I had a black boss and that wasn't necessarily a great, that was not a great situation. So in healing from that, and I left work in 2007,

and then started a clothing line, everything I've done has been self-taught. So I feel like the professional self-worth matched with imposter syndrome as I've been developing myself. Although I've been successful, those things still like weigh in my mind. So instead of me trying to go, you know, the path of least resistant,

or to do what everybody else has done. I always choose much more difficult things, but learning that if I just do me, everything has been a lot smoother. Even this podcast, just doing me. ⁓ When I started the Rebel Geek business, just doing me. So yeah, mine has been more about ⁓ professional self-worth and imposter syndrome that I've really had to work on. ⁓

as a black woman and also as a dark skinned black woman who isn't always the best or well received. So that's mine. Well you guys, this has been great. This has been great, great, great, great, great. This has been an amazing conversation and I am going to put all of the contact information for each of these wonderful women in either the show notes on Spotify or below in the description on YouTube.

And I think that's it, but this is just part one of this conversation. We're gonna have many, many, many episodes talking about this because this is a true problem and I don't think we can get anywhere before we heal ourselves. So we've gotta work through this problem of what ⁓ the damage that we're doing to each other. So thank you guys so much for watching and ⁓ we'll see you in the next episode.